| Author |
Topic: Please Close |
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 8 May 2016 12:00 pm |
|
i've rehearsed seriously with several bands that actually had professional aspirations.
some of those really paid off.
small time bands with that request are generally young and/or naive with a leader who needs his ego
fed by controlling his all-important wannabe project.
i generally work within a pool of maybe 30 pickers, any of whom can fill a gig on last minutes notice way better than a rehearsal band that doesn't gig. |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 8 May 2016 12:03 pm
|
|
and we all expect at least $100 on up...
the sky's the limit! |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 8 May 2016 12:39 pm
|
|
| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
The band cannot do the psg part without a steel player , or a track (ugh!)..
|
I can't think of a chart song released in the past 20 years that's required a steel guitar, or even has a semi-memorable steel identity. The idea that steel guitar is really essential anymore in country music (or even in Hawaiian music, for that matter) is kinda debatable. IMHO, we have to get past this "They need me for the steel parts" mentality, and just start playing good music - all kinds of music. We have to be versatile enough to be a necessary and contributing part of the organization...on all the songs, not just "Together Again", "Look At Us" and "Way To Survive". Even back in the '60s, the golden age of steel guitar, probably a third of the songs had no steel at all, or no really significant steel work.
You don't need (and most bands can't afford) a "hired gun" steeler to play on 3 or 4 songs, and then just "lay out" or do some pads on everything else that's played.  |
|
|
|
Steve Spitz
From:
New Orleans, LA, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 12:57 pm Hired Gun
|
|
Let's not forget that the hired gun doesn't have to be a steel guitar player. What's the diffence between a very competent sub, and a hired gun ? This isn't a steel guitar only issue.
I actually look forward to showing up to play a gig, and seeing a new face. I'm not the bandleader, I didn't do all the work of filling the players slots. It's always a possibility the sub will be better than the player being replaced. You get to play with someone new, and add him/her to your list of potential players.
There are so many great players here. I really think in many ways, a "sub" is a "hired gun".
One difference would be when it comes time to record, and you choose to find and pay for someone better. That's a hired gun. |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 8 May 2016 2:14 pm
|
|
Years ago, I knew a really good guitarist that referred to himself as a "musical prostitute".  |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 2:49 pm
|
|
Except for my summertime gig, I sell myself as multi instrumentalist - pedal steel, guitar, banjo or other on another. Bass on another. I know that "clean, crying" pedal steel is not needed in every song, but with all the other instruments I play and dirtying up the sound of the steel, it becomes more than what people consider a "oh, that's for country music" guitar. I think of the pedal steel as an instrument that can be used in all styles. It's up to the player to get those sounds out of it. If you go in saying you play pedal steel and refuse to explore all the other options with the instrument, you are pigeonholing yourself into a tight hole - just my opinion 
We were at a wedding party in Boston and the keyboard player picked up a bass to cover for the bass playing guitar player who needed a little nudge. Unsure bass players can turn the bus right around where you don't wanna go!
And these guys were all very accomplished musicians. The bass playing guitar player did a whole dinner set with the horn player before the full band came up
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 7:02 pm
|
|
Funny, but it's always been my experience that the bands that rehearse the most almost always sound the crappiest onstage. I have had clubowners call me at dinnertime on Friday or Saturday & say "Hey Dick; my band screwed me for tonight; can you put something together & play" I call a singer/guitarist, bass player & drummer (or I'll play guitar or bass myself & call a steel player) and we'll go down & nail the gig perfectly, like we've been playing forever. If the musicians are good, they can do that. If they ain't good, all the rehearsing in the world won't make a difference.
Right now I am playing with the #1 best country & 60s band in this part of Florida, & we never rehearse. Of course, they are a family band; I am the ONLY non family member. When I wanna do a new song, we just email or Facebook a link to the song on YouTube (Just did it about an hour ago)& we learn it on our own & nail it on the gig. Sometimes, the last set we are playing to the barmaid, then we have what we call our "paid rehearsal".
Only way I'll rehearse with a band is if they are working alot, and the rehearsal ain't far. Don't mind putting in the time; it;s the gas & wear & tear on the vehicle that's the killer.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 7:38 pm
|
|
Agree!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 8 May 2016 10:38 pm I'm A Hired Gun.
|
|
| I used to rehearse with The Oklahoma Opry Band every Sat. before our show. There were so many artists and new songs that rehearsals were required. But these guys and gals in the band were all session musicians and that made it a lot easier. For the last 6yrs., I have been in this band, we never rehearse, we pull songs out of the hat, play requested songs that we don't really know, have fun, get paid and go home. And the boys help me (The Almost 70yr. Old Man) load in and out of our gigs. In 2wks. I'm setting in with a Bro. Country Band to play a wedding. It will be fun and it WILL BE LOUD. I guess I'm a cheap hired gun @ $100 or $200 a gig. |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 9 May 2016 12:55 am
|
|
| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
Tony - I hope you are considering the fact that the band leader is , most of the time, the guy who busts his hump to get gigs, be a Scoutmaster by default, coordinate rehearsals, deal with side players making rehearsal/gigs (missing gigs is for another post), obligated to be gracious with the venue and audience who pay him.
|
Well now Carl, of course I know this...
after 45 years of gigging it did cross my mind.
My comments are with regard to ONE single gig and a one single band which I work with once a month. The band leader in this band is preoccupied with many other outside things,it's like the band is his lowest priority. If we didn't have this ONE gig there would be no band
He's not humping to get gigs, he's not making calls, he's hoping we don't get fired so we can keep the gig we have ! When he does ask for a rehearsal he sets it at a time when he is available and makes it clear that this is the only time he can do it, thats probably the biggest reason nobody goes to rehearsals.
he's a nice guy but way too busy and too passive to be a band leader plus I don't think he actually picks up his guitar between gigs.
When the guitar player left a month or so back the band leader called me for a new player as he didn't really know any, I recommended a long time friend and player and the first thing he said was "I'll audition him"...my response was " just hire him " good grief. IF he had an audition my friend would probably turn the gig down !
Here's where the meat hits the dinner plate , now I crossed over into the hired gun category. I said.."do you actually think I would recommend someone to come gig with us that could not cut the gig " ? Now I became the band leader for a few moments...
So yes Carl, I do actually know first hand what a band leader does and what they SHOULD do to keep the train running.
And by the way I lug a bunch of gear around as well so lets not diminish that comparison.
It's all good...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 8:20 am
|
|
Tony, this guy doesn't sound like the type of bandleader I'm referring to. The eggs in one basket syndrome, huh?
We all lug gear around - I was competing with the keyboard player in a band I played in - I even went out and bought a Rock'N'Roller for myself - when the "equipment manager/sound guy" (who was deaf as a haddock) wanted to borrow my Rock'N'Roller I stopped taking it to gigs 12 weeks after open heart surgery I had the green light to lift at "my heart's content" (no pun here) - the guy didn't even help me. Calling him a UPS would have been a compliment. I had my Vibrosonic Reverb, Princeton Reverb (with Altec 10), pak a Seat, D-10 Emmons, banjo in HSC, Tele in gig bag, back pack with music, etc, Manhasset music stand, cable bag, my hands, legs, eyes, and back 
EDIT - audtion a referral ?? nay nay, he's missing the point!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
|
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 9:45 am
|
|
Knowing how and what to practice are key elements to making rehearsal productive!
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 9 May 2016 1:15 pm
|
|
| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
| Tony, this guy doesn't sound like the type of bandleader I'm referring to. |
Carl, agreed , for certain...nice enough guy though.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 9 May 2016 2:44 pm
|
|
There's always the "intrinsics", "intangibles", etc.,etc.
I go to an open mic here once in a while just to hang, have a beer, jam , and go home.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 10 May 2016 7:31 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| We're all hired guns - it's what we do. A band is just a posse of hired guns, isn't it? |
Some bands are just a posse of hired guns. Some bands are more than that, IMO. The whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts, and if someone can't do the gig, you don't take the gig. Yes, sometimes the whole is less than the sum of the parts - in that case, a lot of rehearsals are a waste of time.
But I still think this is largely context-dependent. Casual gigs with experienced jazz/blues/country musicians playing genre standards are a totally different experience than an Americana, indy-rock, instrumental, band or singer-songwriter unit playing a lot of original, not well known, and/or quirky material. I have done all of the above over the years, and generally rehearsal expectations fall in line with those types of demarcations. I've done some pit-band things for plays - tell them you're not available for their rehearsal schedule, you don't get the gig. These are usually experienced musicians, but they need to rehearse. But my experience is that those kind of gigs usually pay pretty well.
I don't do this for a living at the moment - my college teaching gig keeps me hopping. I have to pick what I do carefully - I want maximum bang for the time spent, and I prefer to play in front of people. But especially starting a band, I think some face-time with band-mates is essential. Even working with real good musicians - if they're 'phoning it in', I am not happy. For me, there has to be some connection, and there are sometimes different arrangements that require some face-time. I think it depends on the situation.
Right now, I'm in the process of starting a band to do a pretty wide range of stuff - spaghetti-western/surf instrumentals, garage-band, blues, country, rockabilly, all kinds of stuff. Some original, some obscure, and some well known tunes. We have been getting together for 3 hours once a week at my place for the last month. I've played with 2 of the guys for 20+ years, one not at all. We could have gone out and done a couple of sets after the first rehearsal - 23 tunes the first night. We're up to something like 65 tunes now. It's productive. I expect we'll play quite a bit. Once we get it up and running, we won't need to rehearse except to occasionally get some new tunes together. But rehearsals are not a drag - they're enjoyable and we don't waste time. I personally would rather do this than be a hired gun with a bunch of people I don't know playing the 'usual suspects' of tunes. If I was trying to make a living at this, I'd probably need to adopt a different attitude. But that's one of the reasons I bailed out on playing for a living - I want to do what I want to do.
I also agree with what Donny said - a band is a team effort. If it's gonna be a band, then you do what needs to get done. This doesn't mean you don't take care of what you need for yourself too. But sometimes the situation dictates what needs to get done, and if you can't do it, you don't get into it. I've had to pass on, or bail out of bands because they decided they were gonna try to take it further than I could commit to. One took it pretty far. But I did what I needed for myself. I wouldn't have been kicking myself in the ass if they had gone "all the way". You pays your money, you takes your choice. |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 10 May 2016 9:05 am
|
|
I have a day gig - it's my guitar/upright bass repair shop. I can put it aside if someone needs me for a gig.
I have been trying to compare the "Americana, indy-rock, instrumental, band or singer-songwriter unit" to a small band jazz gig, which is unfair. I have been so entrenched with the garage band mentality for so long that it's been nice to all of a sudden be playing in a 10 piece band that has no rehearsals and pays well. I now look for that level of professionalism and have higher expectations when people call me. Rehearsals are fine, as long as the practicing is left at home
As I said previously, it is nice to once in a while go out to a local watering hole and just hang. But I don't consider a rehearsal a hang, if you know what I mean.
Lots of good points from everyone.
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 11 May 2016 12:30 am
|
|
although who could argue the point..but, the TEAM effort thing really only works when everyone on the Team understands what the function of the team is.
I would bet the farm that everyone who has been playing gigs, for a period of time, has worked with many individuals who could care less about the TEAM thing, even if you did.
Heck some of us still are, but we still try to do our best regardless.
If indeed the TEAM thing was understood and respected by all band members , bands would never break up ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
|
Posted 11 May 2016 7:30 am
|
|
I suppose it all depends on who the players are as to how much rehearsal time is needed. I played bass on the road for exactly 1 year with Tony Douglas & the Shrimpers back in the 70's. We had one of the best dance bands in the nation. I remember doing 2 rehearsals in one years time and none for the first 3 months I played with them. The very first gig I played with them unrehearsed in Sweetwater, Texas Chuck Jennings (guitar) and Harland Powell (steel) said I sounded like I had been playing with them for 20 years. It's just Country music and I had been doing recording sessions up until then. Chuck just gave me about 6 of Tony's albums to learn before the first night but still no rehearsal. I didn't get my bass out I just listened to them one time. Nothing out of the ordinary. I am a professional steel player also so I'll tell you just how good a steel player can really be. While I was with Tony I played the Jimmie Rodgers memorial festival in Meridian, Miss. and while we were driving to it Chuck and Harland started telling me about what a genius Buddy Emmons was. I asked them "Would you please explain?" Chuck said remember the Meridian, Miss. album I gave you, that was Buddy Emmons playing steel on it and you do know that Bobby Tuttle played the steel on all of Tony's records including his hits. I said yes and then he said Tony gave Buddy $750.00 to fly to Meridian, Miss to record that album with him and Buddy spent only 1 hour before the show with a piece of paper and a pencil while listening to Tony's records. He said Buddy vaguely remembered his hit "His and Hers" from the 60's. To make a long story short Buddy said after he got through writing his notes "Think I got it boys." They went back to their motel rooms to get ready. This was going to be a concert on vinyl LP. Buddy played every song at that concert perfect just like the original recording that he didn't play on. You can compare them by listening to the Meridian album that Buddy played on and then listen to the original ABC/DOT recording of Thank You For Touching My Life. Totally amazing!
While we were there (Peavy Co. worked the sound for us) Hollis gave us a nice tour of the Peavy plant and gave us guitars. I got one of the first T-40 basses that were made and Chuck got the T-60. I worked many sessions with Tom Morrell and he was the same way. He had a photographic memory. I could play a record in the control room and he didn't need to hear it a second time. If that's what you want he played it back note for note just like the record. Many people don't realize just how good some of those players are till you see how fast they can learn a song.
As for the low playing gigs with too many rehearsals just tell the band leader you are a super rare musician and don't do rehearsals unless the pay increases 10 times so just be glad I even showed up at all! |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 11 May 2016 1:49 pm
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Carl Mesrobian wrote: |
The band cannot do the psg part without a steel player , or a track (ugh!)..
|
I can't think of a chart song released in the past 20 years that's required a steel guitar, or even has a semi-memorable steel identity. The idea that steel guitar is really essential anymore in country music (or even in Hawaiian music, for that matter) is kinda debatable. IMHO, we have to get past this "They need me for the steel parts" mentality, and just start playing good music - all kinds of music. We have to be versatile enough to be a necessary and contributing part of the organization...on all the songs, not just "Together Again", "Look At Us" and "Way To Survive". Even back in the '60s, the golden age of steel guitar, probably a third of the songs had no steel at all, or no really significant steel work.
You don't need (and most bands can't afford) a "hired gun" steeler to play on 3 or 4 songs, and then just "lay out" or do some pads on everything else that's played. |
I haven't been playing steel my whole life, as many have, but I've been playing guitar my whole life minus 12 years. Last night at an audition/rehearsal, I had my s10, and will certainly have some overdrive/distortion effect. Rather than the type of lead players who want to do it all, the lead player in the band is deferring to me to do slide work. I also need to take a mandolin next rehearsal. If they want guitar or banjo, I'll take that. If they want Hank, I'll play Hank, if they want Greg Allman, I'll play Greg Allman...Gershwin, I'll play Gershwin - it's all good, as long as there's no opera. We actually might do a disco tune - there's a challenge for S10 pickin'
Don, I agree that playing a wide variety of styles is necessary, and it definitely does improve one's playing.
I don't hesitate to pick up another instrument on the fly and I do not have the "I only play steel guitar" mindset. I expect the steel player to be the last one hired and the first one fired. I was complimented on my bass playing in a band when the band was without a bass player. I said "Thanks, I'm usually the pedal steel player". I left the band - bass is too hard!
Am I a hired gun?? I don't consider myself one and I don't like the label. Some projects understand that it is unreasonable to force a musician to commit to one project, and those groups will use a Rolodex technique. There are lots of groups which are identified as a group (Texas Troubadours, Beatles, Stones, etc., etc) then there are artists (we all know who they are) who are identified as themselves with a whole band of unknowns backing them up. In either case the hiring band won't hesitate to let players go, but the "no hired gun" phrase almost says to me "musician, don't fire the band".
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
|
Posted 11 May 2016 9:13 pm
|
|
I think one of the main reasons a band might write that is to weed out all the guys looking for a meal ticket. If I'm looking for a person to fill a hole in my band I usually don't put out an ad because I'm lucky to know a lot of players locally, but the steel is definitely a different animal. Because I can't guarantee a lot, or even a few decently-paying gigs, I wouldn't dream of including a steel man in my band unless he was a friend who, for whatever reason, really wanted to be in my band *. I know a lot of great players, six-string guys mostly, who can woodshed forever but what they really want is to play with other good players and, more importantly, keep their chops up. Possibly by being pushed by the other soloists in the band. Some of them seem to be unable to get gigs, despite their years of experience and personal excellence. Not sure why, but L.A. is a wasteland in a way. But mostly, we play because we really like getting together once a week, working out complicated arrangements, trying out new songs and continually building up our song inventory. We don't want guys who bitch non-stop about how little money they're getting, or how hard it is to carry in their gear, or how great things used to be. We play because we love it. We still love it. Playing for the fun of playing. No business meetings when we get together.
* PS. I DO have a guy in my band who plays the steel, but he's new at it and not really good enough yet to play shows with us. That said, he's a virtuoso on the keyboards, banjo, saxophone and guitar and tours nationally with a local band on guitar and banjo. They even let him play his steel on a couple of songs. I'm sure he'll be good enough to play with us in the near future !!
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
|
|
|
Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
|
Posted 13 May 2016 5:01 pm
|
|
| If an ad says "no hired guns" I won't answer it. If someone answers one of my ads and says "no hired guns" it usually means they have no(or crap) gigs and I explain politely that my gig requirements are greater than what they want to book right now.....It's true that someone who feels they have to say "no hired guns",or "we have jobs and families" is dealing with a lot of issues that operate against the kind of steady gigging that would justify the commitment they want,but it isn't my job to school someone on which end wags and which end bites. |
|
|
|
Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2016 4:49 am
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We're all hired guns - it's what we do. A band is just a posse of hired guns, isn't it? |
Some bands are just a posse of hired guns. Some bands are more than that, IMO. The whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts, and if someone can't do the gig, you don't take the gig. Yes, sometimes the whole is less than the sum of the parts - in that case, a lot of rehearsals are a waste of time.
|
Agreed about being "greater than the sum of the parts" There is a band that plays every Sunday at a dancehall down the street. They are all good players, but together they are almost magical. 15 years of the same guys playing together really makes a difference.
You Texas guys know most of us are "hired guns". You get called for a gig, they may send a setlist or any original material, you learn it.
When you get to the gig, you recognize a bunch of the guys you have played with before. You set up your stuff and play. End of story.
A lot of "singers/bandleaders" have a little ego thing about us working with others. I choose not to be around folks like that.
_________________
Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
|
|
|
Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 14 May 2016 5:19 am
|
|
| Justin Griffith wrote: |
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We're all hired guns - it's what we do. A band is just a posse of hired guns, isn't it? |
Some bands are just a posse of hired guns. Some bands are more than that, IMO. The whole is sometimes more than the sum of the parts, and if someone can't do the gig, you don't take the gig. Yes, sometimes the whole is less than the sum of the parts - in that case, a lot of rehearsals are a waste of time.
|
Agreed about being "greater than the sum of the parts" There is a band that plays every Sunday at a dancehall down the street. They are all good players, but together they are almost magical. 15 years of the same guys playing together really makes a difference.
You Texas guys know most of us are "hired guns". You get called for a gig, they may send a setlist or any original material, you learn it.
When you get to the gig, you recognize a bunch of the guys you have played with before. You set up your stuff and play. End of story.
A lot of "singers/bandleaders" have a little ego thing about us working with others. I choose not to be around folks like that. |
I think it's the ego thing - I'm not a psychologist, but I'd guess that the singer/bandleader has some insecurities lurking about.. we're not talking about U2 or Band Perry or other groups like that, where you identify the group by it's members. With the turnover in a group I was in, we had drummers and bass players changing at every rehearsal, and the band leader was talking about group photos for the EPK? Please!!! More time was spent hiring and firing than playing out
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
|
|
|
Nick Koff
From:
Lost Angeles, California
|
Posted 14 May 2016 7:40 am
|
|
I don't get all these comments. "No hired guns" simply means 1) we play music together and 2) we're not looking for anyone who only works for money. They are letting you know up front that this isn't the gig for you. I know for a fact that there are a few players who have put a long, long time into learning their craft and strongly resent newer players who 1) still have the energy to attack the game and 2) get to enjoy the learning process and the joy of achieving new plateaus because they can't anymore.
This latest spin into a rant over singer/bandleaders is especially amusing. This thread is starting to look like "Get off my damn lawn, you unruly kids !!"
_________________
Just another belt & suspenders guy... |
|
|
|
