What Do You Think of Jerry Garcia's Pedal Steel Work? |
1) His playing inspired me to play Pedal Steel |
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32% |
[ 50 ] |
2) His playing was interesting to me but not influential |
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12% |
[ 19 ] |
3) Didn't pay attention to his playing and don't have an opinion either way |
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14% |
[ 22 ] |
4) His playing was good but highly over-rated |
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13% |
[ 20 ] |
5) His playing was poor and not much better than a beginner |
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19% |
[ 30 ] |
6) Other - Please explain |
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7% |
[ 11 ] |
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Total Votes : 152 |
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Topic: What Do You Think of Jerry Garcia's PSG Work? |
Mark Hershey
From: New York, USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 8:06 am
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Joachim Kettner wrote: |
The few times I took it Chris, I was often exposed to music I didn't like when in a normal mood. I've always liked a bit of Rock'n'Roll in any music. And the Grateful Dead had it with "Truckin" and "One More Saturday Night". That's why I didn't like Krautrock or experimantal English bands who were not rooted in Rock'n'Roll. This band had it both:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUgRQh3k2uI |
Yeah, I liked both of your clips posted. Especially liked the one you posted yesterday. Thanks a bunch, my ears and mind are always open.
PS: you never got into CAN? Perhaps that's a conversation for another thread and forum. |
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Joachim Kettner
From: Germany
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Posted 3 May 2016 9:22 am
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A big No, Mark _________________ Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 3 May 2016 10:55 am
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chris ivey wrote: |
i'm guessing by the responses that 99% of the forum never did LSD. |
Now that's a surprise, given all of those popular country ballads about dropping acid!
chris ivey wrote: |
that means there is a huge gap in understanding that will always be there. |
Between the hippies and the sh_t kickers, yes, there is an intrinsic lack of understanding — it wouldn't seem right if there weren't. Of course, even if I didn't inherently know that, it doesn't take long too see it, especially in these inter-genre discussions in the Steel Players section. Chris, you've been around here long enough to see that.
chris ivey wrote: |
i'm guessing by the responses that 99% of the forum never did LSD. that means there is a huge gap in understanding that will always be there. and a large lack of love and brotherhood. |
Hey now, peyote is the building blocks of brotherhood — get your drugs straight! |
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Bryan Staddon
From: Buffalo,New York,
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Posted 3 May 2016 12:38 pm I'm in with Chris
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I'd have to agree with Chris on this one, but I think they wrote a lot of good songs, and I seem to remember liking them before I tripped, but I really liked them after. _________________ You are me as I am you |
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Bob Carlucci
From: Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 3:11 pm
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David Mason wrote: |
#6. There's a couple of "confusing" factors - one is, NRPS were (often) not really a very good band. And they weren't TRYING to be, which can lead to some headbutting with the World of Commerce. They started off having fun, and David Nelson's "lead guitar" certainly wasn't going to scare too many pickers in Nashville. Even just living in the same town and repeatedly sharing stages with the likes of Carlos Santana, Mike Bloomfield, Jorma 'n' Jack, John Cippolini, Jerry Garcia in his day job - a jokey, "having fun" approach would be a comforting escape hatch. I'm a fan of sugarmegs.org, why not, thousands of free concerts from everywhere, everywhen, but NRPS is not a repeated stop for me. Like this show:
http://tela.sugarmegs.org/_asxtela/NewRidersOfThePurpleSage1971-12-02BostonMusicHallMA.asx
On the first song, Garcia's solo is clearly an attempt to chase a MUSICAL idea around rather than a sequence of impressively-hot country licks. He didn't know any, so that's a lucky thing there. I've never heard another steel guitar solo like that, and indeed, Garcia does lead and push the rhythm of the band instrumentally from the steel guitar chair, which you also don't hear too much of. Like never? But he HAD to, because David Nelson only knew three guitar licks himself. And, I don't know if this is Nelson or John Dawson singing, but they both often performed "classic" country with a jokey, sort-of mocking approach, one they shared with Commander Cody & the Lost Planet Airmen - "Ha ha, we're imitating REDNECKS, aren't we funny?"
Ummm.... No? |
The New Riders were a much better band with Buddy Cage than they were with Jerry..
The Panama Red , Powerglide, Home Home, on the Road, Brujo albums had some really good country rock stuff.. First album was good too IMHO, just a tad more primitive.. They didn't have great vocals or great chops, but they still played some good size venues in their day, and had some classic albums.. Great chops do NOT make a great band.. NRPS did very well what they had... They made it bigger than 99.9% of us on this forum ever will... bob _________________ I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 4:01 pm
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I take exception with the notion that "NRPS were (often) not really a very good band". I have been in bands with 3 past members, and they are all great musicians. I was never disappointed by the quality of music at a New Riders show, regardless of who was in the band at the time. I've been a fan since before their first album was released, when they were playing small venues in SF.
I still play often with Rusty Gauthier. His presence on stage always lifts the caliber of the music up a notch or two. The guy is top-notch in my book. I'm doing a local show with him this Friday, as a matter of fact. NRPS has always attracted great talent, even during their lean years.
And what does NRPS have to do with "tripping"? Not a whole heck of a lot, in my opinion. Good music is good music. If you have to take drugs (or drink) to enjoy it, it's not good music. I love Jerry's steel parts regardless of my state of mind or the opinions of the naysayers in the steel guitar community. Those improvisations touched me like no other. His steel music inspired me in a way that set the course of my entire life, and ultimately gave you this place to complain about him.
Sort of ironic, isn't it? _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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chris ivey
From: california (deceased)
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Posted 3 May 2016 8:19 pm
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b0b...wow, thanx for that time line of members and albums. lots of stuff i wasn't aware of! |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 3 May 2016 9:10 pm
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Okay, so here's what I want to know: how did Jerry Garcia end up playing steel with so many different people? Was he the only person available in San Francisco back in those days who could and would come out and play steel with rock bands? Without knowing the history, it seems like he had the market kind of cornered for that scene (I've wondered the same thing about Greg Leisz).
Somebody please beak it down for us. Give us the history. |
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Ben Elder
From: La Crescenta, California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2016 10:17 pm Not Your Father's Pedal Pushers
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For us suburban boomer kids, Buddy, Bud, Weldon, Hal and the sundry Sonnys were in a more distant orbit of steel player profiles. So for me, it was Jerry and Red Rhodes, John David Call (Pure Prairie League) and Bobby Black. A couple of years later, "Nashville" shot Stu Basore (and Weldon) way up my heroes list. I was aware of Pete Drake ("Abilene") years before, bought the black Buddy LP when it was fresh, but it was Jerry ("Dire Wolf" more than "Teach Your Children") and Red (all the Michael Nesmith catalog, but I could put "The Crippled Lion" on repeat into eternity) who made me want to play. _________________ "Gopher, Everett?" |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 May 2016 6:03 am
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Duane Reese wrote: |
Okay, so here's what I want to know: how did Jerry Garcia end up playing steel with so many different people? |
For those who have made it to "famous", I think that a lot of their fame often has to do with just being in the right place at the right time. It can also be that they have something new and different to offer. And, it goes without saying that the right friends, or hanging out in the right circles, can help you, too.
I think sometimes, people forget that attitude, originality, and imagination can sometimes take you to places where sheer talent and fearsome chops never will. |
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Ed Boyd
From: Illinois, USA
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Joachim Kettner
From: Germany
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:02 am
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Thank you Ed! This puts it in perspective. Here's Buddy Cage with his steel going through a Leslie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mTHAmXTWlY _________________ Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Ed Boyd
From: Illinois, USA
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Posted 4 May 2016 8:53 am
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That is cool. Thanks.
Buddy Cage, Ralph Mooney, Sneaky Pete, Rusty Young and Tom Brumley are the guys the got me interested in Pedal Steel. I wasn't a specifically a 'West Coast' fan. Those just happened to be the guys I liked listening to. |
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John De Maille
From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 4 May 2016 11:56 am
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My take on this, is that Jerry was never a great steel player by today's standards with all we know and have heard. But, at the time, he blew my socks off. I wasn't even playing steel at that time, but, wanted to and he definitely nailed it for me. I wound up in a country rock band and copied his licks plus, Sneaky's licks, also, some of Buddy Cage's licks. That was where I wanted to be at that time.
But, truth be told, the Sweetheart of the Rodeo album was what really got me interested in playing the steel guitar. Those sounds of Lloyd and JD will never leave my brain, whereas, ....... |
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Pete Burak
From: Portland, OR USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 8:26 am
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Another reason people think Jerry's better than you and I...
He writes his own songs, and play Pedal Steel on them, on his own Album...
The touch and tone, not to mention the reverb, on this cut, are killer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYGatU18PMQ
On this one he writes the song (Lyrics By: Robert Hunter - Music By: Jerry Garcia), sings the song, plays some solid E9th steel on the song, and records it on his own bands album:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaStAAOUao8 |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 8:58 am
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Jerry didn't play like anyone else, before or since. Maybe it was because of his missing finger. Whatever the reason, his style is as instantly recognizable as his voice. He had a set of stock licks that he invented himself, different from the Nashville licks. They're not very hard to play, but they are very specific - they're the Jerry Garcia licks.
One thing I notice is that his guitar was tuned perfect JI, and sometimes he didn't quite reach the pedal stops. So now and then his thirds were flat. The Grateful Dead's harmony vocals had the same "problem". Maybe it was the volume levels they played at, warping their sense of pitch somehow. Or maybe it was the LSD. I notice that a lot of rock singers from that era had that characteristic.
In Dire Wolf, Jerry's steel plays along right under the vocal, often matching the phrasing. That's not something you hear on country records, which are more call and response. For most of us, it would be considered overplaying. A bandleader might even fire us for that. But Jerry was the bandleader, and he played what he wanted to hear. That is not just craft and technique, it's art. _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Charlie McDonald
From: out of the blue
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Posted 5 May 2016 9:23 am
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b0b wrote: |
His steel music inspired me in a way that set the course of my entire life, and ultimately gave you this place to complain about him.
Sort of ironic, isn't it? |
Four pages and the debate goes on.
Quote: |
Maybe it was the volume levels they played at, warping their sense of pitch somehow. Or maybe it was the LSD. I notice that a lot of rock singers from that era had that characteristic.
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You may be right. JI could have become an agreement about pitch, considering. Could be they settled on the vocalists' JI tendencies,
and mostly tuning by ear.. |
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Brint Hannay
From: Maryland, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 12:17 pm
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b0b wrote: |
In Dire Wolf, Jerry's steel plays along right under the vocal, often matching the phrasing. That's not something you hear on country records, which are more call and response. For most of us, it would be considered overplaying. A bandleader might even fire us for that. |
That's largely true of Nashville country, but on the West Coast Ralph Mooney used to play under the vocal a lot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byIR-K8jqzM |
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Mark Eaton
From: Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 5 May 2016 12:29 pm
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You know b0b and Chris, it doesn't help when you're in an online discussion including some Dead "naysayers" and the LSD is mentioned repeatedly.
Early on, beginning in late '65 there were the Acid Tests put on by Kesey, Neal Cassady, Ken Babbs and the rest of The Merry Pranksters. The second one, in the town where I grew up (San Jose) was the first appearance by the Dead. It really wasn't a performance per se - as Jerry said about the Acid Tests - they could play or not play, that wasn't really the point.
I'm paraphrasing below, but I recall an interview with Garcia regarding that San Jose Acid Test. Apparently the cops showed up to check out what was going on and Garcia said one of them asked him who was in charge? His comment was something like, "under the circumstances, that was the most absurd question you could ever ask."
There's this image out there among people with little or no actual knowledge of the Dead that these guys were on Acid most of the time on stage through their career. Not true. Don't ask me how I know this, but a band couldn't function for an extended period of time under these "conditions." The band performing under the influence of LSD-25 as a normal practice, wait - common practice - "normal" should not be included in the sentence - for a whole bunch of years is hogwash.
One guy here in a Garcia thread (was it Garcia thread #67?) about 10 years ago commented how he didn't care for the Dead and he didn't like Jerry as a guitar player because he was a "shredder." Garcia a shredder? Either this fellow doesn't know the definition of the word "shredder" in guitar parlance, or he had rarely or even never listened to Jerry Garcia. A lot of misinformation out there.
There were 17 Acid Tests between late '65 and March 1967.
That would have been enough for a lifetime, or even multiple lifetimes.
Sure, there were always the extended "drums" and "space" portions of Dead concerts. In my heyday of attending shows at Winterland during the '70s, and this is prior to the band becoming such a huge deal where they were playing stadiums all the time to meet the demand for tickets, I would usually venture to the bar near the front door of Winterland and grab a beer during the drums and the space. The space and drums portions usually didn't do a whole lot for me. But we're talking 3 and 4 hour long concerts, so those portions were just a percentage of the typical evening. On a cool SF night it could still get pretty warm inside the auditorium with all those bodies moving around in there. So a beer or a Coke near the front door that was usually kept open was very refreshing.
Then you might hear the band morphing into something recognizable like Sugar Magnolia so you'd head back in, and then you had to sort of pick your way through the dancers - "twirlers" as they were called - like a running back looking for holes in the line and then you could move toward the front as it go back to more "normal" sounding rock and roll music.
There were nights when the music never really got off the ground, but that was okay, we were all in this thing together with the band. It was an understanding that pretty much everyone had. And other nights it was like magic. You had to be there. I'm glad I was.
"They're not the best at what they do, they're the only ones that do what they do."
- Bill Graham 1931-1991 _________________ Mark |
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Brooks Montgomery
From: Idaho, USA
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Posted 5 May 2016 1:41 pm
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LSD may not have been a constant , but it certainly helped power their metronome. Don't forget Owsley Stanley was their sound engineer, and he was quite the chemist. _________________ A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
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Paul Sutherland
From: Placerville, California
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Posted 5 May 2016 1:49 pm
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Isn't there be some other forum that would be a more appropriate place to glorify the use of illegal drugs? Enough already! _________________ It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Chris Templeton
From: The Green Mountain State
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Posted 5 May 2016 1:57 pm
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I had the opportunity to play with NRPS before John "Marmaduke" Dawson died. It was a real treat for me.
This is one of my favorite NRPS songs off of the "Powerglide" record called "Contract", that has some great steel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB7CfxMWsEs
I also have had the opportunity to work with producer/engineer, Stephen Barncard, who recorded "Déja Vu", "American Beauty", a bunch of the NRPS records, most of the Crosby-Nash records among lots of other albums some of you might know. Here is his All Music credits: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/stephen-barncard-mn0000751579.
He told me that NRPS did a lot of overdubs and retakes.
Also, here is a nice song that Stephen recorded on Graham Nash's "Songs For Beginners", with Jerry playing steel, called "I Used To Be A King": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvoq8ybE7o.
I spoke with Stephen today and mentioned this post and he says, "tell the forum I'm still alive!".
Also, although he is pretty busy, he can mix and record live, remotely, via the 'puter, for any projects you might want to use him on. He also does mastering, which can include analog to digital, transfers, and may include baking the tape(s) in a convection oven if there are any worries about the tape shedding because of age.
He can be contacted through his website: http://www.barncard.com .
I've known him for a while and, along.
For those precious old tapes with his expertise, he is a great person with a great sense of humor.
_________________ Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8:
Last edited by Chris Templeton on 6 May 2016 11:18 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Mark Eaton
From: Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 5 May 2016 2:33 pm
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Paul Sutherland wrote: |
Isn't there be some other forum that would be a more appropriate place to glorify the use of illegal drugs? Enough already! |
No one is "glorifying" it Paul, just giving some historical context. I would say most here in the thread are doing anything but glorifying it. I was just clearing up the assertions (not just on the Forum - I have come across it many times) that some people have made about the Grateful Dead as if they were on LSD most of the time when taking the stage for the 30 years they operated until Garcia's death.
And as a matter of fact, in the days of the "Acid Tests," LSD was not illegal. Congress passed a law criminalizing the drug for recreational use in October, 1968. In years prior to that there is documentation that the C.I.A. and the U.S. Army were conducting experiments using LSD as having some sort of "potential" for chemical warfare.
I think some hippies with guitars in Golden Gate Park at the time ingesting the stuff sounds less scary to me. _________________ Mark |
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Chris Templeton
From: The Green Mountain State
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Posted 5 May 2016 3:00 pm
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I don't get the feeling this post glorifies drugs.
Country music today sure glorifies alcohol. It's in just about every song I hear. It wreeks havoc on a lot of lives and relationships and easily makes people angry.
I have NEVER heard about anyone saying they wanted to fight after smoking a joint.
I have been listening to a lot of country 78s lately and there is hardly a mention of alcohol. Not like today.
. _________________ Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8: |
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Dennis Montgomery
From: Western Washington
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