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Topic: An engineering/metallurgy question |
C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 19 Jan 2016 10:14 am
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Curious--
On the older ZB guitars, the changers had stainless radius caps on the string fingers. Would there be a reason not to make the whole string finger out of stainless? (other than cost). I'm not talking about the whole actuator--just the finger. Galling problems?
Interested to know.
Thanks,
CE _________________ "il brutto" |
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Ken Pippus
From: Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 19 Jan 2016 10:18 am
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The newer GFIs have stainless fingers. Suspect the stuff is not much fun to machine, but it can be done. |
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Tim Russell
From: Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2016 10:37 am
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It would certainly make sense to fashion the fingers from stainless, or something similar/hardness - chrome moly, etc. _________________ Sierra Crown D-10 |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 19 Jan 2016 10:40 am
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Oh yeah--I forgot about the GFI changer.
Does anyone know what the axle is made of? Stainless as well? _________________ "il brutto" |
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Jim Smith
From: Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2016 10:24 pm
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Dekley used chrome plated changer fingers and a stainless steel cross shaft, and I've never noticed any galling. That might be another option for you. |
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Justin Griffith
From: Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 4:45 am
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Interesting topic.
Blanton guitars used chrome plated steel fingers on most of his guitars. I also had a black one that has brass changer fingers. It was the only one I've seen. It sounded really good. I Can't remember why it had the brass, I think it was an upgrade the p/o had Jerry do. I'll see if he remembers.
Stainless can be machined, but it's not as easy as softer materials.
I'm making some Sho-Bud Perm changer fingers now. I have two different aluminum alloys and some brass stock I'm going to try. Any other ideas while the CNC is set up? _________________ Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Ross Shafer
From: Petaluma, California
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 10:23 am
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"Galling" is typically caused by friction between two parts due to similar hardness of the two parts or due to dirt,metal chips, burrs, etc so the type of interaction between a string and a finger may cause wear, but something is seriously wrong if there's any actual "galling". As long as there is some sort of bushing at the finger's pivot or the the pivot is harder than the stainless finger you should have no problems.
"Stainless Steel" is the name of a very large family of alloys and they range from really easy to machine (303) to all manner of high tech and not so high tech alloys that can be a big pain to machine. There is no generic form of "Stainless Steel" and the properties are all over the map. When it comes to picking an alloy to work with, do your homework on the different properties all the alloys have.
Have fun! |
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Norman Evans
From: Tennessee
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 3:10 pm
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I think this manganese bronze might make good fingers. It should be a lot harder than aluminum and have excellent wear property.
http://www.concast.com/c86500.php |
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Justin Griffith
From: Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 3:31 pm
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Norman Evans wrote: |
I think this manganese bronze might make good fingers. It should be a lot harder than aluminum and have excellent wear property.
http://www.concast.com/c86500.php |
Interesting. Thanks! Ill let you know how it works out. _________________ Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Jim Pitman
From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 4:32 pm
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You might try a harder aluminum alloy than the typical 6061 too.
If you like the tone of the guitar, I'd be a little cautious about drastically changing the material. That's one aspect that seems to make a significant tone difference. Brass has alot of high end to it I find. |
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Justin Griffith
From: Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 5:29 pm
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I have the 6064 and a harder aluminum. I can't think of the number right now.
Im not changing the guitar per say, just testing some things. My buddy bought a trashed out Perm and we are making a bunch of new parts that match the originals. We thought it would be fun to try different alloys for the fingers while were making parts and had the CNC set up. _________________ Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal |
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Jim Pitman
From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2016 5:40 pm
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Expermentation is geat Justin. More power to you. If there's one area the PSG community flounders on it's guitar tone. There are so many factors and subtleties, not to mention the minor differences our ears discern. |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 9:20 am
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Ross Shafer wrote: |
As long as there is some sort of bushing at the finger's pivot or the the pivot is harder than the stainless finger you should have no problems. |
That's what I was wondering...specifically, why ZB would make a two-piece finger instead of the whole finger made from stainless.
I think a cast finger would sound super. Cast material of the right alloy rings like a bell, especially if it has a lot of nickel in it. But, it would be prone to breakage, I would think. Then again, cast with the right alloys...
Well, anyway. _________________ "il brutto" |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 9:35 am
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Also, probably a dumb question, but if I took a machine shop a sample of metal that I'm considering for a finger and another that I'm considering for an axle, would they be able to figure a Brinell number for the pieces and determine compatibility? _________________ "il brutto" |
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John Billings
From: Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 11:54 am
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Metals also have different qualities in relation to sound. Bell Brass is considered a "musical metal." Is stainless? Lots of people think SS strings are too bright. What about Oilite? Bronze impregnated with oil? Used as bushing material. _________________ Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 12:26 pm
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I would think oilite would sound dead; I've done enough clutch jobs and dropped pilot bushings on concrete floors, and those suckers drop -- THUD.
Ever-lubricated changer, tho!
Bell brass tho...hmm.
I think Bobby Bowman made at least one of his B guitars with bell brass fingers and roller nuts. _________________ "il brutto" |
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John Billings
From: Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 12:27 pm
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There are different grades and types of Oilite. It was just an offhand thought,,,,,,, _________________ Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 12:34 pm
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Oh, I wasn't slamming it--we're all just spitballing here. It might be the best thing ever! _________________ "il brutto" |
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Ian Worley
From: Sacramento, CA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 2:06 pm
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I think it's important to consider a guitar as a system. No one part or material by itself determines the tone of the overall system, but each influences it. The strings create the initial complex sound vibrations. Some parts of the system serve primarily to conduct these vibrations -- parts that are small and dense like changer fingers and axles, nuts, bridges, etc. Others allow those vibrations to resonate -- body, neck, top deck, etc. Then there are the pickups which "hear" the resulting vibrations of all of this, and so on.
The only way to determine if, and to what extent any one component of the system is significant to given guitar's tone is to swap them out one by one and compare (like Justin is planning to do). I believe that A/B comparisons of individual components like this will reveal very little difference from one to the next. Ross Shafer posted a while back that he had done just this, comparing brass fingers to aluminum in the same guitar and found little tonal difference. |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 2:23 pm
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Yes you are correct, the sum of the parts makes the guitar.
That said, once upon a time I had two ZB's-- #1 with aluminum fingers and #2 with aluminum fingers and stainless caps. #2 sounded like a ZB. #1 sounded like it was trying to sound like a ZB but couldn't make it. It had the timbre, but not the tone. #2 had that shimmery, bright, glassy tone, much like a Fender 400/1000. Part of the thing I like about the ZB is that "west coast" tone...like a Fender. Fenders had stainless (or some sort of hard steel) bridges. I see a correlation, and I'm intrigued. _________________ "il brutto" |
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Ian Worley
From: Sacramento, CA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 2:47 pm
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I guess the point is, did you try the fingers from guitar #2 in #1? The two guitars are two completely different systems, even if they are the same model, and otherwise the same in terms of materials, pickups, finish, etc. That would be the only way to know that the fingers alone were what gave the guitar its pleasing tone.
I have Fender 800, it's a 2" thick slab of solid ash mounted on a rigid wrap-around cast aluminum frame, steel fingers with an edge pivot and with a fairly low-output single coil pickup. It has that bright shimmery sound in spades, but again I associate that with the overall system. If I took just that 800 changer and put in my Emmons, all else being the same, I seriously doubt the Emmons would sound like the Fender (I doubt it would sound like an Emmons either!).
That said, small incremental changes can certainly add up, however, it would be next to impossible to know definitively which of those changes or components are most significant without commensurate incremental experimentation. |
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C E Holden
From: Austin, TX
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 7:05 pm
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Lord.
Never mind.
I'm out. _________________ "il brutto" |
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John Billings
From: Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 8:36 pm
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Me too! Bye! _________________ Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Walter Bowden
From: Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2016 9:58 pm
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I remember asking a question some years ago on the forum if Bigsby steels had the fingers made from cast aluminum vs. extruded aluminum because Bigsbys are considered "Holy Grail" tones by many.
I was informed by knowledgeable sources on the forum that the Bigsby fingers were made from cast aluminum (like P Bigsby's vibratos). Just about all the other steel builders used extruded aluminum stock to make the fingers out of including other "Holy Grail" tone machines over the years.
It seems like a lot of factors come into play concerning the choice of metals for steel guitar parts.
I also read that some builders use hardened drill rod to make the changer axel out of.
It seems like you should know about metallurgy, dissimilar metals, physics and a good dose of alchemy in making a steel guitar.
I won't even get started about choice of wood or formica finishes, colors, metal or wood necks, scale lengths and so on. _________________ Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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Ian Rae
From: Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jan 2016 1:24 am
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I share the instinct of many that some metals are inherently less musical than others, but the popularity of aluminium fingers puts the lie to that. I kind of feel that they shouldn't sound good, but many swear by them.
When I first put together my home-build I used mild steel fingers on a mild steel shaft, for reasons of cost and ease of working.
It sounded fine but after a year of playing I dismantled the changer to reduce the string spacing and discovered clear signs of galling, something I had not considered and which did not seem to be affecting the playability at that stage.
So I replaced the axle with brass slightly harder than the original steel, and it had the effect of brightening the tone significantly but pleasantly. I'm assuming that it will also make a better bearing material - time will tell. _________________ Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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