| Author |
Topic: Building speed ??? Vs clarity |
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 4 Oct 2015 9:55 pm |
|
Ok so I'm trying to increase my scale speed and have hit some challenges.
Certain scales at speed sound no different tonally at 200 BPM.
Drawbacks:
The layout on the steel guitar can slow you down if you intend on covering 3 octaves
The flurry sounds less clear than on a guitar
Certain scales stand out as there intervals are obvious like pentatonics
Major Modes at speed all sound the same except for one note. That's either good or bad.
Chromatics don't layout well at speed and sound like crap
When played slightly slower the difference sounds clear
What are your experiences? The more I get into Jazz the more I realise what Bill Was saying. Melodic lines trancribed from other players seems to be the only nice sound at speed.
Major modes have a lot of notes that are there that don't actually go well if you follow in order.
Jazz skips notes in the scales. Arpeggios seem to be more clear as they actually focus on the key notes in a chord. Example the 5th in a scale goes nowhere unless it's dim or augmented.
Why does no one tell you what Scales to practice????
So I ask you. scales or arpeggios. What is your advice?
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 12:52 am
|
|
In fact some scales and arpeggios will be tricky to execute if not laid out easily on the Lap Steel Guitar and I guess will take a lot of time to get it at any high speed.
Just wished there were a guide with common arpeggios.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 6:56 am
|
|
For jazz, the scales that are most commonly used are:'
Major
Harmonic Minor
Melodic Minor (ascending and descending the same)
Diminished
Whole tone
Pentatonic
There are a lot more scales, explore, but these are the basic ones
Arpeggios are the backbone of jazz soloing, scales and various chromatic leading tones provide linear connections from chord to chord
Becoming really fast at playing scales on a lap steel is not only difficult, but isn't going to sound much like jazz. One thing I learned early on in my jazz steel experiments (I'm a professional jazz guitarist, been playing steel about 5 years) is that to make the linear connections from chord to chord, finding "pockets" that contain arpeggios and smaller chunks of scales seems to be much more effective than long scale runs.
I found (for me, and the way I think) that making grids with all the notes on the instrument, printing them out, and finding the various arpeggio/scale pockets shapes has made it easier for me to transfer my existing knowledge to steel, and made playing transcriptions of various jazz players (guitar, horns, whatever) quite a bit easier
Bear in mind - this is all coming from a guy who can play jazz guitar pretty well, but still am a marginal steel player. There have been other steel players, much better ones, who have agreed with the "pocket" concept.
Mike Neer has some books that explore some of this thinking in a very clear way. I would strongly urge you to find out from him which would be best suited for you.
Good luck - so great that you are really going for this
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 7:10 am
|
|
I think one of the big revelations for me came when I realized that it was important to embrace the nature of this instrument and its limitations, and not be limited by them, but be inspired to seek other paths.
You must learn your scales to become a proficient enough player to improvise in jazz, but instead of playing scales in 2nds, change up the intervals. Learn the scales and their modes in every intervallic combination from the lowest possible note to the highest. Practice them starting with the lowest strings. Here is an example:
This a basic G melodic minor scale in 3rds in C6 tuning (6 strings, E 1st):
| Tab: |
E--------------------------------------------------------
C--------------------------------------------------------
A-----------------------------------------------3-----5-- etc.
G-------------------------2------3-------5---3-----5-----
E-----0-----2-----3---2------3-------5-------------------
C--0-----2-----4-----------------------------------------
|
After that, you can begin to embellish them by adding in approach notes, like a half step above or below, etc.
I was humbled when I had a lesson with Nir Felder (I brought my lap steel instead of guitar) and I realized that this was an area of difficulty for me (still is!). You have to learn your tuning completely. I have no issue whatsoever with any of the scales, but playing them in the manner I described above spontaneously in all ranges of my instrument in every key is a challenge. Once you have that mastered, things open up miraculously.
Check out Nir Felder, he is a badass.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 7:51 am
|
|
Hey Mike
It's more so not a problem playing them. It's the fact that when you listen to other players in Jazz. A lot of time they are not playing the major scale in order or even all the notes. It's some form of arpeggios. I did some hunting this morning and found info about 3-9 arpeggios. That Wes and many other heavily rely on.
I will put in the time and try and get speed darn it. But the above info about a 3-9 arpeggio took me a while to find as I didn't know what to search for and I can't help but think there must be loads of useful nuggets like that jazz guitarists use that they don't share.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 7:55 am
|
|
| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| What tuning are you using? Forgot to ask.... |
Thanks for the awesome info about how players connect arpeggios with scales. Can't wait to try later.
My own tuning called the "Theory Tuning" check my blog below in my signature.
Also I can't help but wonder what other gems of info people would never know to search for about soloing in jazz.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 8:55 am
|
|
Your tuning is very interesting- I see how it can be very useful
I use Reece's last Bb6 Universal tuning on my pedal steel, and the 12 string lap steel that's almost completed by MSA uses his C6 tuning, but also in Bb, as I want the tunings the same
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:09 am
|
|
| i would think choosing your notes from your own artistic perspective would be the way to go, not following anyone else's map or plan. |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:43 am
|
|
That's definitely the ultimate goal, but helpful to have some idea of how the changes fit together.
You're absolutely right, though - all this stuff is just examples of tools you can use, not " this is the way to play". Just tools
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:46 am
|
|
For a long time, I had in my head a vision of the steel guitar played with the speed and precision of a good guitar, piano or sax player. When I finally heard players who could play blazing bebop lines on steel I had an epiphany. I didn't like it at all! It went against the grain of the instrument. Much like the human voice, for me, the steel shines when it stays more or less within the velocity and execution parameters of the voice. But if you hear John McLaughlin lines then go for it, Stefan!
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:52 am
|
|
Awesome thanks for the Bebop licks. I was after kind of the theory and method used to approach this rather than someone else's licks. However if that is the way to find out I'll transpose away.
There must be some hidden theories. Today I found two. surely there are more. As I'm not going to lie but it's almost as if there is a huge reveal hence why Wes was able to self study and not know his scales. There MUST be a method that is repeated to capture melody and melodic lines without the scale theory.
I almost feel like the traditional theory and modes are designed for a completely different genre of music. I know it's a solid foundation HOWEVER I notice for example in not only the great nuggets you guys have shared but in my little research there are ways to applying arpeggios that form themselves Jazz scales.
Like the 3-9 arpeggio with a passing semitones at the beginning middle and end. Yes with enough study someone will say "Oh that was just a Lydian #2 b5 run". And that is my exact point. There must be some specific jewels that are not being shared.
I'll give you an example. George benson demoing his guitar at a guitar show. Some guy tries it out and with less than 8 bars George exclaims Wes Montgomery lives. ie there are specific patterns/scales that he figures out in his small 5 years of self study. He unlocked the secret.
He found it in Charlie Christians style note for note and then applied it. However what was his and others discovery. As it clearly shows in his interviews that he doesn't know much about modes.
Does anyone else feel like this? I find modes in their traditional study set the foundation to calculate what happened with traditional terminology but it doesn't necessarily show you melodic notes that go with Maj7 chords. Everything sounds scaly.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:02 am
|
|
I remember reading and hearing that Wes Montgomery best recording and performance was Smoking at the half note. All the rest was pop.
And apparently the Jazz heads got bored and some said his later work was just ok. While others got bored of his apparent "repitition" of melodies over different songs. Not saying he didn't have more to offer but they must've recognised specific scales being reused. And more commercially friendly melodies.
hOwever his playing even then to my untrained ears didn't recognise recycling of material. Or does that come with study.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:06 am
|
|
| Andy Volk wrote: |
| For a long time, I had in my head a vision of the steel guitar played with the speed and precision of a good guitar, piano or sax player. When I finally heard players who could play blazing bebop lines on steel I had an epiphany. I didn't like it at all! It went against the grain of the instrument. Much like the human voice, for me, the steel shines when it stays more or less within the velocity and execution parameters of the voice. But if you hear John McLaughlin lines then go for it, Stefan! |
Haven't heard many/any blazing speed yet. But I will definitely try. I know Maurice Anderson and Mike have laid down some nice lines and Aj Ghent plays his pentatonics scales well but I haven't heard anyone let it rip. jazz blinding bebop.
Oh one day indeed.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
|
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:14 am
|
|
I sent those licks for you to analyze, more than play. Lots of interesting ideas in those. I'm sorry that wasn't clear - the 3-9 kinds of ideas, etc - all in there
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:19 am
|
|
Yeah Doug is awesome. But that's pedal steel. I mean on Lap Steel Guitar also Buddy emmons was about the same speed but Tommy White undoubtedly is the fastest but I'm not comparing pedal steel to Lap Steel Guitar. Less movement required. Hands, feet, knees outer and inner thigh etc. Pedals ,levers push and pull.
Truly amazing players but not for me. Something raw about Lap Steel Guitar that attracts me plus the challenge is there. No pedals or levers etc. The revolution I guess would be able to match or better their speed with clarity even after moving the bar 50 more times.
Now that would be f@"'ng awesome. 
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:22 am
|
|
| Christopher Woitach wrote: |
| I sent those licks for you to analyze, more than play. Lots of interesting ideas in those. I'm sorry that wasn't clear - the 3-9 kinds of ideas, etc - all in there |
Awesome. Anymore jewels I should be on the lookout for. Literally we are speaking about a concept that when I woke up this morning I never heard of. I just by chance was noodling around and came across it when playing arpeggios. Didn't even realise there was a specific name.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 11:24 am
|
|
| have you listened to much joaquin murphy? |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 1:06 pm
|
|
Yep. I would hardly say blistering speed. Clean lines and phrases though. Think the speed of barney Kessel when he gets into a jam. He just connects the melodies like nothing. Much cleaner playing than most but speed and tone to boot.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 1:30 pm
|
|
Yep. I would hardly say blistering speed. Clean lines and phrases though. Think the speed of barney Kessel when he gets into a jam. He just connects the melodies like nothing. Much cleaner playing than most but speed and tone to boot.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 4:43 pm
|
|
Lines are not scales and arpeggios- they are melodies spontaneously composed or worked out using parts of scales and arpeggios that fit over a particular chord. Even when played fast, that is still what they are.
I wouldn't be so hung on up blistering speed until you know what to play - that's one really good reason to play transcriptions and those ii V licks - absorbing vocabulary is important. It's like giving a speech, and talking really fast, without knowing sentence structure. Does that make sense? Those burning lines the bop guys play are the result of studying how lines move through changes - a great reason to practice transcriptions.
I like to play Charlie Parker solos on steel (not very well yet!!!!), because it helps me see how the music lays on the steel
Just my take
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
|
Posted 5 Oct 2015 5:37 pm
|
|
And did I say -
I really think it's great that you are striving for this! Me too - I really want to transfer what I can do on guitar to the steel.. Pedal and non pedal, it's such a great sound
Someday
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
|
|
|
Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
|
|
|
|
