| Should I add the missing knee levers or turn it into a non-pedal setup? |
| Yes, add the missing knee levers |
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100% |
[ 23 ] |
| No, go ahead and turn it into a non pedal C6 & Helms tuning setup |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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| Author |
Topic: Missing Knee Levers |
Jared Lucas
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2015 7:44 pm |
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My grandfather handed me down his 1974 CD-10 double neck pedal MSA, and I recently picked it up and started learning to play it a few months ago. I've spent most of my time learning on the C6 neck, but recently started trying to learn more on the E9 neck. However, reading tablature allowed me to quickly discover that I am missing the 2 knee levers on the left side that are supposed to change the pitch of the first two strings. I have 8 pedals, and two knee levers on the right that change everything in standard fashion, but nothing that connects to the top 2 strings on the E9 neck. This particular model I know was supposed to have the knee levers on the left, but knowing my grandfather, he was constantly stripping things down and putting them back together, it would not surprise me at all if he took them off and lost them or something.
So, what I'm wondering, is how much it would cost to put in the 2 left side knee levers, or if there is another way I can set it up in absence of those (which I currently have a hard time seeing). I am a college student and don't want to spend too much. I am strongly considering taking the pedals off and simply changing the E9 neck to Don Helms E13th tuning and leaving the bottom neck a C6. Any suggestions? |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 23 Jul 2015 8:33 pm
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You can pull the 1st string up a half tone very easily and with practise... accurately. ... by pulling the string toward you with your ring finger on the bar hand.... much more difficult to get the more modern whole step pull.
I would have a hard time without at least 4 knee levers for E9... have five and would prefer up to six. .. for the small cost involved. ..I would make the investment. If nothing else you will have piece of mind that you aren't missing a valuable part of the learning experience. I would post a forum ad asking for spare parts...or purchase better than oem parts from Jim Palenscar or another part maker. |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2015 9:31 pm YES, use the pedals and knees
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Jared, you said the guitar has two knee-levers on the right. If they do nothing with strings 1 and 2 then I'll venture a guess they raise and lower the E-strings, #4 and #8.
If it were mine I would start playing it that way, and add the knee levers on the left when you can. I see no down-side to doing that. Any limitations at this point are imagined, not real. Start having fun. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2015 10:07 pm
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Two knee levers are not enough. You should at least add one to lower your second string D# to D. It's an essential change on E9th.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jul 2015 11:43 pm
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I have an immeasurably small fraction of b0b's knowledge but I know he's right about that.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 1:17 am
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The MSA is easy to add them, and Michael Yahl, Jim Palenscar, and Tom Bradshaw all sell the kits.
If you have the money on hand, I'd order both the LKL and LKR kits, and think about 2 extra bellcranks for them, since the MSA positions the left knee group so it can work on both necks. Put two extra cranks on the levers, so that if you decide to add C6th changes, you won't have to disassemble that lever.
Nice guitar, bud.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Peter Harris
From:
South Australia, Australia
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 2:26 am
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Ha!
When I read the title of the thread I thought that either they'd gotten stolen in the parking lot or that your knees were too low to reach them... 
My (limited!) experience tells me that no modification should be left unattempted... sometime it pays not to discuss this with other family members until the job is finished, though...
HTH
Peter 
_________________
If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really! |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 3:31 am Re: Missing Knee Levers
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| Jared Lucas wrote: |
| ....... I am strongly considering taking the pedals off and simply changing the E9 neck to Don Helms E13th tuning and leaving the bottom neck a C6. Any suggestions? |
To me, this implies that you don't want to waste your time learning to play on this two-lever guitar so you'll just ditch the idea of pedal steel altogether.
You can spend a lot of time and make a lot of progress and play a lot of music on a 3 pedal, 2 lever steel. The idea of not playing pedal steel because you don't have enough levers is, to me, a poorly considered choice.
Yes, you want the missing levers and should add them when you can but lacking them should not discourage you from playing what you currently have.
If I am misunderstanding your situation or your intentions, I apologize.
--edited to sound less harsh--
Last edited by Jon Light on 24 Jul 2015 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 4:28 am Re: Missing Knee Levers
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| Jon Light wrote: |
You can spend a lot of time and make a lot of progress and play a lot of music on a 3 pedal, 2 lever steel. The idea of not playing pedal steel because you don't have enough levers is, to me, bizarre.
Yes, you want the missing levers and should add them when you can but lacking them should not discourage you from playing what you currently have.
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Excellent advice! The vast majority of the most significant stuff that has ever been done on E9th pedal steel was done without having that change.
Get a teacher, a teacher that doesn't stutter and go into convulsions when he doesn't have more than 2 knee levers.
(I sometimes get the impression that many players here have never listened to anything recorded before the '70s.  ) |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 5:30 am
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What Jon said.
The MSA is a solid guitar and you can add knees as you need them.
For that matter, you can add pedals, too. Your guitar is drilled for much more than you have in it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 5:32 am
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As to your poll, I'd choose option 3:
Start with what you have, and add more as you need them.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 6:05 am
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My first pedal steel was a pull-release with one lever which appeared to have been added later. It lowered 2 to D and 8 to D#. This snapshot of history suggests that those changes are more "basic" than the modern E raises and lowers which are easier to achieve with an all-pull changer.
Although I updated as an engineering exercise, I could have covered a lot of ground without. The Winston book, which is all I had to start with, mostly only uses those two changes.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 6:42 am
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That 1st and 2nd string raise can be done with a fingerpull
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jared Lucas
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:14 am
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| Thanks for the advice everyone. I think after reading this I'll add them when I save up the money (I'm a college student so it may be a while). Sounds like a worthwhile investment. Making it a non-pedal would only have been a temporary measure, as I'll probably only be playing Hank Sr tunes & Western swing with my group in the fall. I definitely want to learn the pedal steel for sure. I really appreciate the advice since I'm just starting my pedal steel journey. |
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Jared Lucas
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:26 am
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| Thanks Greg that's a lot of great info! |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:34 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| That 1st and 2nd string raise can be done with a fingerpull |
Possible, true. But not a substitute for a knee lever. Not only an imprecise way to get the note, but you can't move the bar while pulling a string with your finger.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:36 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
As to your poll, I'd choose option 3:
Start with what you have, and add more as you need them. |
exactly my thought, you have your E raise and lower, and that is enough for you to start, with time as you progress you can add more knee levers... at this point i would concentrate on your right hand technique , and getting a nice and solid tone ... if you don't learn how to get a good, round tone, not 10 knee levers will help you later on...
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:45 am
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| I'd beg, borrow or "steel" the money to buy a couple of knee lever kits and install them. For a $300-$400 investment, you'll have a professional 8+4 pedal steel guitar, that will stand you in good stead for many years. |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 7:54 am
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knee levers are usually around $250 per knee lever, with parts and labor, and this is old D10 MSA, if he has to ship guitar to the shop to have the knee levers installed that is another $200 for shipping both ways, he is looking at around $700 investment, and doesn't even know how to get a good tone out of the thing... 3 months from now he may decide that steel is not really what he is interested in, and then what?
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 8:02 am
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1) if Jared is along I-70, I can pick it up and return it, if he didn't want to install it himself.
If he DOES want to do it himself, there's a lot of help here on the forum.
2) Tony, do you really mean put it away until he can add the other knees?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 8:13 am
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Here's a question: are there any undriven (extra) cross-shafts on the left end of the guitar?
It's possible that your tinkering grandfather left rods and shafts, but just removing the levers /like in that other thread started this morning) some pics of the underside might help.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 8:16 am
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| Damir Besic wrote: |
| knee levers are usually around $250 per knee lever, with parts and labor, and this is old D10 MSA, if he has to ship guitar to the shop to have the knee levers installed that is another $200 for shipping both ways, he is looking at around $700 investment, and doesn't even know how to get a good tone out of the thing... 3 months from now he may decide that steel is not really what he is interested in, and then what? |
He'd be able to sell it for more than without the knee levers. Quite possibly recoup the cost. I imagine a two-lever guitar is a relatively hard to sell.
I don't think anybody is suggesting "Don't play it until you get more levers." That's ridiculous. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 8:39 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
| you can't move the bar while pulling a string with your finger. |
Ouch! Gruesome image 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jared Lucas
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2015 8:40 am
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Here is a pictures of the underside. Unfortunately there are no steel guitar shops in my area that I know of in central Ohio. I am determined to play it, so I'm not going to put it in a box and not play it and I'm not going to sell it. It sounds expensive so I'll have to save up. I'll try to another angle or two of the underside
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