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Topic: Electro-Mechanical Changer |
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:02 am |
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Respectfully of course, Scott, to beat a dead horse, one can tell the difference, and it does affect playing.
The piano action has a lot of parts that feed back to the fingers, and a good one has a remarkable sensitivity to touch.
Similar to picks, on the hands of an experienced steel player.
Reducing mechanical action in the future would be to experience a reduction in sensitivity.
Playing music enhances it. Everything has its use; there are things one overlooks about a steel in a noisy hall,
subtle things easier to appreciate when it's quiet,
where touch becomes more important.
Listen like you're deaf, I say, and feel like you're blind.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:28 am
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The player can tell the difference, but weighted keys done well don't make an electric piano less responsive or harder to play than a "real" piano. And few if any listeners can hear the difference with today's technology.
I do like the very direct feedback of a pull-release guitar, but the further the machine gets from that ideal feedback loop, the less it matters to me. The number of mechanical parts and springs between my foot and the strings seems to be more of a nuisance than a benefit. The tactile feedback is more of the machine than of the strings. I don't need it to play well.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 15 May 2015 7:54 am
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I think it is true that you can't hear the difference.
Certainly, in construction, the individual piano actions are light, wood, and in the grand are very refined, different from steel (a real machine).
It's interesting what you say about the pull release guitar; I seem to be looking that direction from other things I read, including tone.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Joe Stoddard
From:
Corning, NY area (USA)
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:25 pm
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| DG Whitley wrote: |
| I'm going to quote Scotty from Star Trek on this one: The more you overhaul the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain. I just simply do not see the necessity of doing all this..... |
There is no "necessity" - in the 'necessity is the mother of invention" line of thinking. If all you want is a mechanical PSG, that has pretty much been perfected. But there are fewer and fewer players learning to play... and fewer and fewer players on recordings - even with the explosion of "americana" and "roots". I'm thinking down the road about technologies that could expand a 6-string player's options, maybe eventually create interesting hybrid instruments, etc. that younger folks would be willing to learn. Example - the ability to have a stand-up instrument that can do double/triple string pulls and be played with a bar (dobro style) or fretted... I'd buy that tomorrow morning assuming it worked reliably. Guitarists are used to their pedal-stomping pedal board - they'd adapt quickly to 3-5 pedals used to modify the pitch of their strings.
The one technical battle I see is getting any kind of "real pedal feel" into the mix - speed of the change, resistance.. etc. That part is going to be much tougher than just some on-off switches on the floor.
JLS |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:30 pm
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I wanted one of those MSA(?) pedal deals for my guitar. The same that Phil Baugh used. Really cool! Wish they were still being made, as they're very hard to find. Love to experiment with one, Bottleneck and Low bass G tuning.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Joe Stoddard
From:
Corning, NY area (USA)
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:31 pm Electro-Mechanical Steel... more
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Thanks everyone for the input thus far. I wanted to throw this in the mix.... I think by far the "feel" of real pedals would be the toughest thing to duplicate. Tough, but not impossible. There are very realistic digital piano mechanisms now- both keys and pedals.
That said- keyboard players put up with "dead" feeling keyboards for years. Yes you can get very realistic-playing mechanisms now, if you're willing to spend the dollars... but in the 80s when I was playing 5-6 nights/week, we were very happy trading something we could carry under one arm for lugging a spinet piano with Hepenstill pickups (sp) and a B3 organ w/ a Lesley speaker up and down stairs. Musicians will accept trade-offs if there enough benefit elsewhere in the instrument. That's all. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:39 pm
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A Fender cable guitar has a different feel and activation curve compared to a rod based guitar. An Emmons push-pull feels quite a bit different from other guitars of the same era. As long as the changer is accurate, players can adapt to the feel of the pedals.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 15 May 2015 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe Stoddard
From:
Corning, NY area (USA)
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:39 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
... and it may even be cost effective. After all, electronics are cheaper now to make than something machined. I, like you, prefer to play the old way by never can tell what's in the future.  |
This is my way of thinking. I think eventually, for the instrument to survive and not go the way of the Sackbutt and Harmonium, etc... it has to keep evolving. In the overall scheme of things, current PSG mechanisms aren't all that reliable or trouble-free -they take a lot of tinkering and maintenance compared to say... an electric bass or even a drum set. Mixing consoles are totally automated these days and I haven't heard that the motorized sliders are any less reliable than their manual predecessors. A system that could instantly compensate for wear, for weather conditions, etc etc -would be welcomed (I think) Give your PSG a quick strum and every string is perfectly tuned.. and every changer up/down is perfectly tuned - and not just to an average -to every interval. That would be a big step forward IMO. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:46 pm
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Joe,
Very cool!
http://www.helpinstill.com
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Joe Stoddard
From:
Corning, NY area (USA)
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:47 pm
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| Peter Harris wrote: |
| Hi Joe, FWIW, the Roland (synth) pickup is NOT a midi pickup.. .. |
Yes I do know that. And as soon as I sent it I knew someome would call me on it - I was trying to over-simplify and use "MIDI" generically- my bad.
But you get the idea -whether it's a Roland PUP or just a Piezo or something else (or maybe one of each) - adding those to the mix expand the sonic range of the instrument.
BTW- I own the Ibanez Xing guitar-controller from the 80's. It was, and still is - the fastest responding controller that I've ever played. I use it to trigger rack-mounted synths. It is also proprietary technology, different still from some of the other pickup types we've been discussing. I've honestly never purchased a more modern system (the Roland for example) because I've yet to find one that tracked as accurately. Of course you're stuck with their guitar and electronics - and the 24 pin (or is it 30?) cable.
I'd love to discuss with you further if this goes anywhere.
JLS |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 1:59 pm
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Many years ago, when the guitar synth pickups first came out, I played steel on a gig with a guy that had the first one in this area. He plugged into a Kurzweil(SP?) synth module. During a break I asked him if he had a Honky Tonk Piano patch in the synth. He did. I had been fingerpicking Ragtime for ages, and had worked out the whole of The Entertainer, 5 pages worth of piano music! I played that, and his jaw hit the floor! Done that in Guitar Centers too. Much fun for me!
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:12 pm
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| Joe Stoddard wrote: |
| The one technical battle I see is getting any kind of "real pedal feel" into the mix - speed of the change, resistance.. etc. That part is going to be much tougher than just some on-off switches on the floor. |
Not really, as mechanically it is just a question of tuning in the right spring-tension for pedal resistance. Electronically we may have to "teach" the software to map the pedal-movement for each pedal/lever, and repeat that when sensors are being replaced. Even for the best sensors there's too much production-spread to guarantee that a replacement sensor will exactly match the original, so may as well program in an "automatic pedal-mapping" to make it service- and user-friendly. |
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Marty Beal
From:
Long Beach, California, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:19 pm Latency
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As other have probably pointed out, the biggest challenge would be "feel." If the system is digitally controlled, latency is an especially difficult issue. Even 6-10 milliseconds (maybe less) would be noticeable. Even if there's no digital control, there would potentially be a lag time, which would be a drag to work with.
Durability of the motors, calibration, the need for power supplies would also be potential issues.
Interesting, though. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:42 pm
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| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
Listen like you're deaf, I say, and feel like you're blind. |
whaatttt?? ....who said that?? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 May 2015 3:55 pm Re: Latency
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| Marty Beal wrote: |
| As other have probably pointed out, the biggest challenge would be "feel." If the system is digitally controlled, latency is an especially difficult issue. Even 6-10 milliseconds (maybe less) would be noticeable. Even if there's no digital control, there would potentially be a lag time, which would be a drag to work with. |
Yes. Direct, analog, control, coupled to and watched over by a digital controller, is one way to go to eliminate latency. This "duality" can also provide some redundancy, so the contraption doesn't quit working on the job because of some minor failure.
| Marty Beal wrote: |
| Durability of the motors, calibration, the need for power supplies would also be potential issues. |
Yes. Quality components is a must, and ease of service/replacement while at the job, has to be better than for the mechanical PSGs. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 15 May 2015 6:53 pm
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When I was a kid, like alot of kids, I took piano lessons. I didn't stick with it because as soon as I was old enough to start noticing girls, I switched to guitar. 
But seriously folks, the thing that really stuck with me was how I was taught to play each note. How to use my fingers and body to feel the notes and draw them out of the piano. Those lessons (thanks god) have stuck.
So when I got around to teaching myself pedal steel in the mid 70's(with the winnie winston book) it was not a chore. I could hear the music on the radio and records (flat black discs with grooves that spin on a machine & play music) and "feel" my way thru it. So to me, (it's all about me) "feel" is more important than theory or playing the "right" notes. Please, not to belittle the theory folks in any way!  To that end, as far as this thread is concerned, the tough part of creating a steel with electro mechanical parts will be allowing for "feel".
It's also kinda like physical activity or sports. When you run, you don't just use your legs. you use your arms, head, eyes,(watch where your going) torso, etc. Steel is the same thing, both legs, both hands, head, heart, etc. "Feel" is the part these engineers who are building electro-mechanical changers will have to wade thru. They'll get it, eventually, or at least come pretty close or MAYBE in the process, create a whole new instrument. That would be cool too!
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Dieter Stoll
From:
Germany
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2015 10:26 am
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Those RC servoes are electronically controlled, and so timing the bends would not be a problem with the right controller. The big issue I see with this design for pedal steel (other than how much room they take up!) is that the torque available from these motors is juuuust barely enough to pull the strings. Changing the lever arm arrangement to increase available pull force would proportionately slow down the response and increase the size of the whole thing. But I think it could be done. Expensive, though. Probably almost as heavy as mechanical changers, and way more complicated. I don;t think we're there yet as far as an electromechanical system that can respond like fingers.
For just a couple of changers like a b-bender it looks to me like a fine thing.
_________________
Excel D10 8&4, Supro 8, Regal resonator, Peavey Powerslide, homemade lap 12(a work in progress) |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Jul 2015 5:46 pm
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| Paul Arntson wrote: |
| I don;t think we're there yet as far as an electromechanical system that can respond like fingers. |
I'd keep the fingers/scissors, and just replace the raise and lower rods with servos. Only need one raise and one lower for each string regardless of how many changes (pedals and levers) and adjustments that are built in and programmed, and they will always return to neutral/open tuning when "released". |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 1:15 am
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My thoughts also George.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 2:07 am
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I think I'd go keyless with servo-activated pull-release fingers at both ends: raises at one end and lowers at the other.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 2:17 am
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Not a bad idea Lane!
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Geoff Noble
From:
Scotland
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 2:51 am
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I think that this will happen eventually.
However in the meantime I'm thinking of upgrading my legs & arms to bionic hardware. As well as the advantage of stable hips and knees, I'll be able to program the appendages so I can play like Buddy Emmons, perhaps develop different packs for all the great players 
Great idea though with push servo's at one end and pull's at the other Lane.
_________________
"Nothing can ever be wrong about music" - D Allman
"There is no bad music, only music you don't like" - Me
YTube- http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFqsA-Ahlgr2Z2sw71WJHGg/videos
SCloud - https://soundcloud.com/just-jef/tracks |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 4:10 am
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Not push. Pull from the other side. Possibly with programming to allow for splits and compensators
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 16 Jul 2015 5:12 am
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| I'd put all the electro-mechanics in/under the keyhead - keyed or "keyless", and focus entirely on tone when (re)constructing the bridge-end. |
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