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Topic: I did some upgrades to my Dobro, now thew Cone rattles! |
Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2015 8:21 pm |
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Hi Gang...
As I have mentioned, I am doing some upgrades on a Monroe Morgan Square Neck.I got the parts I ordered today.
Now as a preface...
Before I started the rebuild the guitar didn't sound all that great but it didn't rattle.
I replaced the plastic nut with a bone nut.
I installed ebony tipped maple saddles.
I replaced the Cone with a Beard Cone.
I did not replace the Spider.
Funny thing is that I noticed that the legs of the Spider did not have any angle to them, the Spider laid flat on the table. I thought the legs were suppose to have at least a slight bend to them?
After I reassembled the guitar I am getting a rattle from the Cone. No matter how much I loosen or tighten the screw connecting the bridge to the Cone I still get a rattle. I have also placed a slim piece of rubber under the tail piece so it doesn't rattle against the cover plate and a slim piece of rubber under the ball ends of the strings so they don't come in contact with the cover plate either.
The guitar definately sounds better than before.
But now I have the rattle.
I am open to suggestions.
I will replace the spider if needed.
But the guitar didn't rattle before I did the upgrades.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Apr 2015 8:50 pm
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Does the edge of your cone contact the rim that it rests on all the way around? No high spots. And DO NOT overtighten the adjustment screw. You will warp the cone. It only needs to be snug + maybe a quarter turn. You really need to have someone show you the first time.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 4:16 am
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Things to check.
Does it "rattle" when strummed open, barred or both.
One string at a time, exert pressure behind the bridge while picking the string. Any changes?
Do the same behind the nut. Any changes?
Visually inspect that the strings are not touching the palm rest when guitar is at pitch.
Verify that the "high" & "low" side inserts haven't been swapped.
Verify that the nut is not backwards.
How did you determine the height of the inserts and nut?
The massive import spiders do not typically have an arch. In your case it should not matter if everything else is proper.
Answers to above may provide clues.
h |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 4:23 am
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Did the cone fit well? One time I put a new cone in a budget resonator and the cone was slightly larger than the original. I just trimmed the lip of the guitar top until the cone rested on the sound-well. That turned out to not be enough, and I did over tighten the screw, which killed the tone, but fortunatly didn't ruin the cone. I went in and used a Dremel routing tool and cleaned the former work up and made certain it was all level. The cone was true and free. Then I put the spider on it and noticed it was not exactly touching, and one leg seemed to be causing the problem, so I used a flat file to remove just a tiny amount of it. The spider was perfectly held flat by gravity alone to the edge of the cone. String it, tune it, and as Clyde said, turn the screw as little as possible. I played a bit in different places on the neck to be sure it was quiet. Done, and sounds 100% better than my first setup.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 6:36 am
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Hi Gang.
The Cone does not rattle like Marley Ghost rattling his chains, its just a low back ground sort of rattle that sustains after you hit a note. It occurs open and when fretting a note.
The nut and saddle came pre slotted so there are not installed wrong and the nut is trimmed to be 3/8" above the neck.
I am going to guess where the cone rests on the rim or an arm of the Spider is where the problem is.
It does now sound much better than before...
Except of course for the rattle.
Maybe I should go a head and get a new Spider also.
I don't think I killed the Cone.
I didn't waaay over tighten it.
How would one know if one did damage it?
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 6:42 am
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The inserts may be pre slotted but the halves are split high and low and should not be switched.
What about the rest of my suggestions. Trying to pin this down for you. You're welcome to guess what the issue is and you might even be correct. I'm trying to lead you down a diagnostic path.
I'd recommend NOT purchasing the spider until you nail this down.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 7:02 am
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I am not home now and won't be until Sunday night
The inserts had different widths for the string slots
so I am fairly sure they are installed correctly.
I will double check all the suggestions made to me
on Sunday night.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 1:55 pm
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Just getting everything square will go a long way towards better. And that palm rest idea above is a very good one...that makes a heck of a racket.
Keep us in the loop, and safe travels.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 12:51 am
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I`d get a new #14 spider, too.
Not only it might well cure the rattle but it would also improve the tone, too.
_________________
Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 8:13 pm
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Hi Gang
OK I have done pretty much all of the suggestions that you kind folks have given me.
I have "mostly" eliminated the rattle.
But I seem to be getting a dead sound particularly
from the three higher stings (mostly the High B)
If this was a standard guitar I would say it sounded like it was "fretting out" like the guitar had a high fret that the string was coming in contact with.
These are new D'Addario EJ42 Phosphore Bronze Resonator Guitar Strings. A new Bone Nut (preslotted)
a new set of Saddle Inserts (preslotted) and yes they are installed correctly. A New Beard Cone.
I am using the original cheapo Spider.
I did level the Spider.
And I have the Cover Plate off, so that is not part of the problem.
I am sort of lost here?
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Greg Booth
From:
Anchorage, AK, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 8:20 pm
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The one thing that hasn't been mentioned is tightening all the nuts and washers on the tuners. They can loosen from temperature and humidity changes, vibration etc and rattle. Might help, might not.
_________________
Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 8:26 pm
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Thanks
The tuners are very cheap and once I get the guitar working I will replace them.
However they are tight and nothing loose.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 9:03 pm
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The strings might not have a good break-over angle at the bridge... this can cause weak tone, if they don't press down hard enough. If the bridge string slots are too wide the strings can move around, again causing weak attack/tone. Is the bridge piece held tightly by the spider? This connection is important to the tone... should have no movement there. Make sure the spider only touches the cone, and is not riding up on the body. Also nothing should touch the cone anywhere except at the edge, except the spider. Check the tightness of the adjustment screw *after* you bring the strings up to tune, the cone sinks in and this distance can change. Good luck!
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 12:12 am
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Russel,
You may want to get the Paul Beard Setup and Maintenance DVD available from Resophonic Outfitters. Great stuff. Oh yeah, spring for the #14.
Best of luck,
Ian |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 4:15 am
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The break-over angle is likely it, like Stephen said.
It can be on either, or both ends, but the way I tell is to use my fingernail ir a blade and touch the string behind the nut as close to the nut as possible. If it's a bad breakover angle you'll hear a change in the tone of the string. Then I use a string slotting file to adjust the slot so that the guitar-side is unchanged, but the tuner-side is slightly lower...just a touch...so that it has more pressure on the front edge of the nut. Much cleaner tone. You can test this the same on the bridge saddles too. I think it's less likely the problem...but I'm no expert. YMMV.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 5:32 am
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Without having the guitar in front of me..
A dead high side eliminates the cone/spider.
If the OP would exert pressure on the strings, one at a time, behind the insert and then behind the nut and not any changes.. that would be helpful.
If the issue goes away with pressure, that would seem to indicate a break angle issue. In general, self installs tend to set the inserts too low. When only very slightly too low the fat strings sound better than the skinny strings as seems to be the case here. Another clue might be that the spider was flattened after the fact. If the same insert height measurement was used that would result in an ever so slight decrease in action and break angle.
So, if the inserts are not permanently installed then a new set would be in order.
That's all I got except if you live near Dick Deneve maybe he could check the setup for you. If unresolved send it to the Beard shop. They'll do magic for the guitar.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 6:13 am
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Howdy...
When I got the "Dobro" it didn't
rattle or sound "dead" it just
sounded like a cheap Dobro.
After I installed the new parts.
It sounded better but then the rattle
and now the slightly dead sound.
I installed the Nut and Saddles to
the same height as they were in the
original set up.
After I leveled the Spider it is very very
slightly higher than it was originally.
I tried pressure behind the Nut and Saddles
and there was no difference.
Sending a $200 Dobro for a $200 set up
seems a bit impractable to me.
If I can just reduce some of these
issues I'll live with the Dobro
until I can swing the $$$ for a better unit.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 6:35 am
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It's tough to diagnose long distance.
Couple of points:
If you leveled the spider how did the spider height increase. Did you re-arch the spider?
Can you provide detailed photos that show the inserts in the spider, perhaps with a straight edge spannning the tops of the two halves? Also a photo of the strings breaking towards the tailpiece and on the other end of the guitar the strings breaking towards the tuners.
Another thing that I will mention is if the cone/spider assembly is actually level on the ledge. Less likely but I've witnessed stranger things in import guitars.
Of course there are other potential issues but it's no use bringing them up as the are less likely and require specialized knowledge and tooling for a fix.
I hope this is helpful. Frankly if this doesn't shed light I think your options may be limited to professional bench time.
Or maybe a light bulb (easy fix) will go off for someone else. 
Setups are an art, science and voodoo. That's why so few folks can do it well.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 6:47 am
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As I am a Prof Photographer sending photos would be no problem. I'm not home now I'll do that tonight.
The ledge that the Cone sits on does have a slight dip in it
for about 3/4 inch.
I'll send photos tonight.
The reason I bought a Cheapo Dobro and spent a couple of $$$ on up grades is that I wanted to be sure I stuck with the instrument before I spent some big $$$ on a high quality one.
I have been playing acoustic and electric guitar for over 40 years and I recently got into C6th Lap Steel. I sort of wanted to see about playing the Square Neck Dobro.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 6:49 am
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Welcome to the challenge of inexpensive dobros.
h |
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Russell Baker
From:
Owego NY, USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 6:58 am
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Funny thing is that being left handed I assumed that doing some rolls would be a problem for me to learn. I down loaded a lesson on playing Cripple Creek (which I know is not all that difficult) and my right hand had no problems.
I'm not expecting the world from this Dobro, I just want to get it so I can learn from it and eventually move on to a better unit.
The thing that bugs me is that it didn't rattle before I put the better stuff in.
_________________
R.E. Baker
There's lots more of me where I come from! |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 20 Apr 2015 7:00 am
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Parts don't rattle/buzz on their own.
It's all in the setup.
h |
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