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Topic: Differences In Mic’ing Your Steel or Going Direct |
Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 31 Mar 2015 8:34 am |
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My opinion... if you have a good "quiet" room (furniture, carpet) a "live mic" recording tends to sound better, and captures the nuances of the guitar through the amp. A direct box method can sound canned and over processed, if not careful.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2015 4:09 pm
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Many nonpedal players need an amp as part of the sound.
Direct is zero risk. You can't mess up the mic placement. And unless you have a good sounding room, you probably want to close mic.
Do both and pick one in post/mixdown. After a while, a pattern will emerge and you'll know which works better for you. You may choose either for a given recording.
Unless you turn up the treble on your amp a lot, you'll get more treble direct. You can EQ that out. Add some digital room and sometimes, it's hard to tell from an amp. |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 31 Mar 2015 10:35 pm
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If you have a great mic, great preamp and a quiet as well as nice sounding room, than using an amp is probably best, IMO.
By nice sounding, I mean not too live and not too dead.
Going direct is convenient because you don't need to mess with mic placement.
I think it makes it easier to change the tone at mix down if you need to, with the use of amp modeling software too.
As I've said in previous posts, amp modelers have come a long way in the past few years.
If you use an amp to record, you can still change tone at mix down if you record two tracks, one with the amp and one direct.
You can "re-amp" the direct track at mix down if needed. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Mar 2015 11:11 pm
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I've never had a great sound sound going direct from the guitar or volume pedal to the board, but I have been able to get great sounds using the Line 6 Pod XT between. That's how I record at home. I understand the Pod XT very well because I've been gigging with it for a long time.
In a real studio, I rely on the engineer's experience in miking amps. I can make my amp sound very good, and these guys have the experience of recording electric instruments every day for many years. They know what mic to use, where to place it, etc.. I don't know that stuff.
The bottom line is that your amp is a part of your instrument, as much as the wooden body is part of an acoustic guitar. You can use an amp simulator (like my Pod XT) and get great results, but you can't eliminate that electronic part of the system any more than you can eliminate the wooden resonant chamber of an acoustic guitar. A steel guitar doesn't make that sound by itself. Flat response is generally dull.
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 1 Apr 2015 5:41 am
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I like pre-amps w XLR outputs.
On the bandstand, it allows me to set the stage sound for my purposes and the sound-guy to adjust the signal into the board for his.
In the studio, I turn over all control to the engineer. "Mic vs direct" is his choice.. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2015 12:35 pm
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Gentlemen thanks for all your experienced observations... I’m REALLY new to recording so I’ll digest this and I’m sure it will prove useful.
I know I’m doing this all wrong but this is the way I’ve been doing it...some of it is just the process of seeing if I can do it, but that said, I want to be able to do it better, even though it’s mostly a personal thing and just something I want to be able to give to family and friends who keep asking for something... I know you’ve all had this same experience.
So here’s how I’ve been setting up... I’ve been using Garageband hooked up to a PreSonus Firestudio Project... I’m coming out of a Profex ll, but only miking one amp, (one SM-57)... a Session 500 with an SM-57 pointed midway between outer edge and cone... Did I mention the amp is in a closet with me, and on its side so I can get it all the way in, (Room size issues)... the first time I tried recording like this I got quite a bit of pedal noise, so I put temper pedic type pillows between the pedals and the mic with the pillows being right up to and against the mic, and I’m also recording “Wet†because of the Profex and fear and lack of understanding about adding Eq and reverb and effects... Anyhow, this is what I’m ending up with, if you care to give a listen and tell me what you hear that I’m not even sure to listen for... and yes, I hear EVERY playing flaw I have, and they are many...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFIlyfimAhc&list=PL8VW-yqKTTqlmNe9zP-NtFvVHl6OkHZBa
Yesterday, for the first time I tried recording direct, and I’m not sure how I feel about it except that I know there’s something there, but can’t quite put my finger on what I’m hearing... a couple of observations I think I’m hearing is that the overall volume seems more even, and I have to record much softer and yet think that occationally I’m still getting a little distortion... I haven’t finished with the direct method yet but will let you know when I do, if I don’t give up the idea first.
Thanks again for you help, Dale
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2015 3:48 pm
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Dale, we should be asking *you* how to record steel  |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 2 Apr 2015 9:57 pm
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Dale,
So far I've only had a chance to listen to your recording with the little speaker in my smart phone.
But from what I heard, all I would recommend is that you just keep doing what you're doing.
Nice work! |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 3:53 am
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
| Dale, we should be asking *you* how to record steel |
I agree; I'm not sure I could tell the difference.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 6:14 am
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Thanks to both Charlie and Rich... I like the idea of recording direct, but know that its a whole other beast for me to tame.
I got a really nice email this morning from a gentlemen here on the Forum who I consider quite knowledgeable (I’ll let him reveal himself if he chooses) and he gave me some direction that I tried just a little bit this morning already... I took the Profex ll out of the chain which got rid of the reverb and Eq and the small amount of distortion I thought I was detecting.
I’m sure not used to playing let alone recording without reverb, and that’s a whole other thing...right now even with putting some reverb and one of the built in Eq models it still sounds a little flat and dead...not bad, but not as lively as I’d like... I guess that’s something that will take time to learn to get what I’m after... and I’m not sure what that even is, except that I hope I’ll recognize it when I hear it.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 7:44 am
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My home recorder is a Roland VS-1800. It has 2 built-in effects boards that sound pretty good. I usually record into it dry and then add the recorder's reverb and echo if the song warrants it.
Recording (and practicing) without effects makes you a better player. You have to hear your hands to know if what you're doing is right or not.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 9:59 am
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| b0b wrote: |
My home recorder is a Roland VS-1800. It has 2 built-in effects boards that sound pretty good. I usually record into it dry and then add the recorder's reverb and echo if the song warrants it.
Recording (and practicing) without effects makes you a better player. You have to hear your hands to know if what you're doing is right or not. |
I’ve always heard this and certainly agree with you b0b... it’s just hard to rip the bandaid off and expose all those things that need attention... I’m really fighting a little “chirpiness†that drives me nuts, but with my lack of REAL good technique I’m afraid it will be present until my technique improves...
The only effects unit I have is the Profex...is there a way to add that back in after the fact?... I like what it does for the sound, but am clueless on putting it back into the recording, or for that matter, just using the Eq and effects tool within Garageband...I see some reading or you tubing in my future.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Apr 2015 4:37 pm
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Never forget that the signal coming out of an amp is produced electronically also.
I think the very best sounds are produced by professional recording engineers micing an amp.
However, most non recording engineers don't get that sound.
The closest I can come to a classic steel sound is playing through an Art direct box. The direct box is gives an electronic signal that is close to an amp sound and in many cases it is better than what comes through an amp.
It is the speakers and electronics in an amp that make the sound. When the sound gets to the hard disk it is an electronic signal no matter how it gets there. I find direct boxes put a better signal on the hard drive the majority of times.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 5:46 am
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At home I record direct 100% of the time, when in studio , not that often, it's 50/50, at the will of the Engineer.
I have recently added the DBX model 376 Channel Strip tube preamp to m y rack which contains a 4 band active parametric EQ and compression. I now track and print EQ 100% of the time and in a many cases add some very mild ( not even noticeable) compression. 3:1 ratio with a very high threshold .
If we are getting any distortion on the DAW track , the preamp is where it is coming from, too much front end gain or too much backside gain, even if the DAW level meters are peaking in the -3db range., where they should be for digital tracking especially if an MP3 transcoding is in the cards.
Yeh I know, many of you will say, once you record and print to the track you can't change it...yep..I know this for sure. But on the other side of the coin is you already have the desired TONE that you were seeking, much like dialing in your amp with a 57 mic...do you EQ that again or is that done ?
Additionally, although the track has the EQ you desire, you can alter it where required with minimal specific db boosts or cuts at specif frequencies.
Here is the most recent track I completed , Steel guitar strong. Every Instrument went thru the 376 but there were EQ tweaks at the final mix time...
PS, this track was used last week at a company memorial presentation for a close friend who recently passed, actually the song was inspired and written in his memory.
https://soundcloud.com/rumbleroomaudio/paradise
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 7:48 am
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Hi Tony
Very nicely done. Steel sounds great and the acoustic guitars and the bass are blended very well.
I agree with you about recording with eq and some compression. What I prefer over compression is limiting; where the limiting just prevents the signal from getting too loud rather than reducing the dynamics which compression can do.
The only things I do not like to record are reverb and delay effects. While you can counteract the others with a tweak of EQ, the reverb is there forever and can not be undone.
In the old days we always recorded with eq. If we waited until after the fact, the eq would also effect the tape noise and it could get funky if you were not careful.
Loved what you did.
All the best
Mark T.
_________________
Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Apr 2015 1:30 pm
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THX Mark, I certainly agree about over use of compression on the front end, at each REAL studio I was in last year they plugged me in direct thru a tube compressor ahead of everything, very mild, perhaps 3:1 or even 4:1 . It is said that a Limiter is a compressor in the very high range, 8:1 or 10:1 with a very high threshold. So the trick is to keep the ratio/thresholds up high to prevent a noticeable "squash" but yet contain those nasty peaks. A happy balance.
and yeah, no verbs or delays printed to the track.
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2015 6:36 pm
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There's really no need to compress or EQ these days going to "tape". Again, stripe one with and without if options are important. If it's time to commit to a compression regime, or if you know a compressor well, then do that.
If you think you'll get overs, patch a second track and pad that one down -20dB. Or -30dB - with 24 bits, you get terrifying dynamic range.
If you just need nearly inaudible peak reduction, this is the best I've found because I stopped looking
http://www.gvst.co.uk/gmax.htm
You can abuse it, so don't do that.
But in general, steel doesn't need compression in my humble opinion. But sometimes compression sounds amazing on steel. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 1:38 am
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Actually, these days many folks are going to tape with EQ. It's turning into a 50/50 proposition. If you are using a quality preamp that allows a really nice EQ going to tape, ( not a $49 MF special) you just saved gobs of time in the mix. Why not print the sound you like ? Engineers did that for decades before DAW's became the game of the day. Since stepping up to a more robust preamp with 4 band para EQ, I now have joined the print with EQ camp ! Dial in the tones I want before hitting the record button.
Mild compression as well, maybe 3:1 with a high threshold. You can't hear it on tape but you can see it on the meters !
just a thought...
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 6:12 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
Actually, these days many folks are going to tape with EQ. It's turning into a 50/50 proposition. If you are using a quality preamp that allows a really nice EQ going to tape, ( not a $49 MF special) you just saved gobs of time in the mix. Why not print the sound you like ? Engineers did that for decades before DAW's became the game of the day. Since stepping up to a more robust preamp with 4 band para EQ, I now have joined the print with EQ camp ! Dial in the tones I want before hitting the record button.
Mild compression as well, maybe 3:1 with a high threshold. You can't hear it on tape but you can see it on the meters !
just a thought...
t |
Tony, I’m using a Presonus Firestudio Project, and don’t see any EQ in anything I read about it... Would you put a Graphic EQ after the VP and then into the Presonus?... right now, the only EQ I’m using is whatever 3/4 or 5 Band is used in whatever setting I’m using with my Profex ll.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Apr 2015 8:26 am
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Dale, the Presonus Firestudio is a nice interface, I believe 8 inputs, they also term it a preamp as it does have 8 analog in's and outs . IF you are using your Profex for EQ, that is your preamp and if you are selecting a tone from the preamp and recording, you are printing with EQ !
I use an MAudio Delta 6 / 4 in 4 out interface but my preamps are ahead of that.
In your case , if using the Profex there is really no need to add yet another EQ source, the Profex is it, dial in what you like and go for it. ...if you are NOT using the Profex you could use a preamp such as a Joe Meeks or DBX, something that has 4 band para EQ on it, as well as input gain level and output gain level. There is a lot of confusion about interfaces and preamps, many vendors market preamps as interfaces, and vice versa. One box does all kinda thing.
The DAW needs a way to get audio into it, thats your interface, converts analog to digital, then to get music into the Presonus you use a Preamp or something like the Profex. That being said, the Presonus can also take line in and mic ins which makes it a very flexible unit but it does not offer EQ's etc, so should you want to use something with EQ's or compression, you would use the Profex up front. When using the Presonus as a preamp it is implied that you will use the DAW effects bin for EQ's etc, and that is not wrong, it's just different.
I lately use a DBX 376 which has a 4 band para EQ, front end gain and back side gain as well as compression, I use this preamp for everything now, I dial in the tones I like, send it to the DAW via the Delta 6 interface, the recorded track is what I like. I don't mess with EQ's much after that other than some low end cut or hi end cut to balance the tracks in the final mix. The tones ( EQ's) I want are already on the track, vocals, guitars, steel etc. I do use the DAW ( Pro Tools) for all other things, verbs, delays, track compression etc...
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter which method you use, direct or mic'd, if you find the tone you like then thats what matters.
Probably the most important part of your recording chain will be the quality of the preamp, direct or mic'd, you use the same preamp.
I hope this helps and is not causing more grief !
t
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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