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Topic: Tuning E9 down 1/2 step -- any potential problems? |
Donald Moxley
From:
Charleston, South Carolina, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 6:51 am |
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| I have a Marrs E9 that I want to drop to Eb9 due to my guitarists request. I want to continue to use the Sid Hudson sweetened tuning. I use the Cobra Coils Custom string set. Does anyone have experience with this and are there any potential problems or adjustments. |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 7:18 am
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What doesn't kill you makes you stronger Bro.
Go for it.
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 7:30 am
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It'll require a little bit of turning of the nylon nuts.
I did it on my Zum. I'd probably prefer to memorize the values instead of writing a tuner program.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 7:37 am
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Yes--you will need to retune your pedals to account for the change in tension.
However my primary reaction to your guitarist is: "you play your guitar, I'll play my steel--butt out." |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 8:01 am
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If they tune down and your vocabulary uses a bunch of open stuff, it makes sense.
I dropped because I was enjoying playing with a Stevie Ray Vaughnabee, and thought the open strings went well. In fact, it was my idea.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 9:55 am
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The fiddle player and I convinced the band leader to tune back up to standard. I also bought a Digitech Drop (red box) box so I could still play in G when they were in F#, works well, slight delay but beats retuning my guitar stops when I play with others.
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Flamma Reverb, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.
Phone: 971-219-8533 |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 10:57 am
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| I understand the reasons a player might choose to tune down, ranging from timbre to easy playing with tuned-down bandmates to finding your hammer-ons, pull-offs. But I'm going to do it because I have decided to do it. Not because a guitarist thinks I should. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 11:37 am
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Now that's funny. 
I wouldn't tune down unless I had to rely on me looking at the guitar player to see what chords/key he is playing in, or as mentioned, playing with open strings.. I would try playing without tuning down first. I sat in on a steel guitar that was tuned to a D9. It was a little strange having to think of everything being 2 frets up from normal.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Robert Parent
From:
Gillette, WY
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 12:13 pm
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My first steel was a Fender 1000 with the solid bridge. There was no way I could tune the thing to E9th without breaking strings like crazy. The solution was to tune to a Eb9th as you are asking about. Worked fine and I played that guitar for about 4 years until I could afford to buy something else. I used standard E9th string gauges.
Robert |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 12:14 pm
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russ pahl tunes to Eb9..probably for tonal reasons.
using cobra coils and a sid hudson chart seems like a conflict of interest.  |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 12:17 pm
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| band leaders who tune to other than E are just annoying others with their own limitations. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 1:12 pm
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I think you would really prefer thicker strings when you use a lower tuning.
If I were to change my tuning from E9 to Eflat9, I would make another fret board with the markers at frets 4,6,8,10, 13 etc so that I wouldn't have to unlearn and relearn all the notes.
But first of all, I don't understand why a guitar player can tell you what tuning to use. I would try staying with the E9 tuning that you know, and telling him that you tuned it to his favorite tuning. See if he notices. For example there are anecdotes about clarinet players pretending to change from Bflat clarinet to A clarinet to please a conductor who said that sounds much better when in fact it was the same Bflat clarinet. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 1:47 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| band leaders who tune to other than E are just annoying others with their own limitations. |
Human (fe?)male vocalists (as machines) may work better in flat keys than standard guitar keys. I'd call it a reasonable choice on their part. The people are there for the singer first, drums & bass second, then everything else*. The law is "singer calls the key" and the Second Law is "the singer is always right."
I am there to serve the Muse first, and support the singer second.
*unless you're playing in something where it's all about fiddle or steel. That happens at times.
This being said, I never play open strings on steel except to tune. |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 4:31 pm
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I recently played in a band for a couple of years that turned down a half-step.
And I was the utility player, playing PSG, Keys & occasional 6-String Guitar.
This worked best for me - I left the PSG at standard tuning and I turned down my 2 Keyboards & 6-String to match the rest of the band
And here's my reasoning behind it:
It's easy enough for me to play most pedal steel parts a half key lower, but some of the signature keyboard parts have been ingrained in my memory for so long, and rock-oriented solos & fills are so much easier for me in keys like E & G as compared to Eb & Gb. And the same goes for 6-string Guitar - I can certainly play Folsom Prison in Eb, but it's easier and I believe sounds better in E.
At first on songs where I switched back and forth between steel & keys, it took a lot of concentration to remember to play a half step lower on the psg, but we played pretty regularly, and after a few weeks I pretty much remembered all the time from then on.
If we played a song by request not in our usual set list, I had to be real careful and not rely on my default thinking. For example, Friends in Low Places had an "interesting" sound when I came in on "A" instead of remembering it was Ab to me!!! Though I heard it right away and adjusted immediately, so I guess you can say I was playing the Jazz version. Is there such a thing as a jazz version of Friends in Low Places???
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 5:25 pm
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| Marc Friedland wrote: |
I can certainly play Folsom Prison in Eb, but it's easier and I believe sounds better in E.
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I thought it was in F. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 5:57 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Marc Friedland wrote: |
I can certainly play Folsom Prison in Eb, but it's easier and I believe sounds better in E.
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I thought it was in F. |
I think it is on the record. Not sure though. I don't use any open strings, so I don't care what key they play it in. One band played it in G.
It seems that most girl singers sing in flat keys. Every one I have played with, and there were many, sing in flat keys. The one I play with now likes Db, Bb, Eb and Ab. Theses are usually the same keys that were on the recording.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 15 Mar 2015 7:33 pm
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| You guys may certainly be right regarding Folsom being in F. I admit to not hearing the original in quite a long time, though most bands I've played with have played it in E. The main point I was "trying" to make was in my case playing the 6-string guitar tuned down a half step, the same as the rest of the band worked well and sounded good to me, while at the same time leaving the steel in standard pitch and remembering to adjust for the key. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 3:07 am
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Stringed instruments are designed with a standard pitch in mind; scaling is the length and gauge of string.
Ideally, the instrument should sit there; tuning it up and down destabilizes the instrument and thus the tuning.
However, if play with an unstable guitarist, what does it matter?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 5:36 am
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| Didn't Tom Brumley tune to Eb with Buck Owens? If the other guitars are tuned to Eb, it might be a good idea to try it so you can still use the open strings. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 6:49 am
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| We tuned down with Dwight for a few years, and Gary Morse tuned his steel down without any problems. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 7:07 am
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I'm still wondering why it's done, being naive. Poco tuned their piano down a half-step, I understand it was
because the piano player liked playing in F or Bb better, but I don't see any of the excuses
I mean I agree with chris. Who do these guys think they are, and who are they?
| Larry Behm wrote: |
| The fiddle player and I convinced the band leader to tune back up to standard. I also bought a Digitech Drop (red box) box so I could still play in G when they were in F#, works well, slight delay but beats retuning my guitar stops when I play with others. |
I was previously against those red boxes, but now I see why.
I mean, what are capos for?
Is there really an A clarinet? Or is it like A pedal?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 7:29 am
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| fwiw, Back in the day, everyone from Jimi Hendrix to Buck Owens tuned down a half step. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 7:34 am
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Was there a reason given?
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 7:46 am
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I once read an article where Buck said, iirc, his songs sounded better on the radio when they tuned down a half step.
'Not sure about Jimi.
I presume it is based on vocal range. A half step down is a significant change in tension for the vocal chords, allowing singers to sing in the center of their natural range, in which case I guess you could call a singers natural range a "limitation" that is easily overcome by tuning the band down a half step, so the guitar players, etc, can strum open G,C,D (etc) country chords, and/or Foxy Lady, Purple Haze chords. |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 16 Mar 2015 8:48 am
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| There are also tonal reasons for it. It has a different sound. Most 6 string players chasing Don Rich's tone can't get there because they're tuning to E. There's also the case if you play with horn players. They prefer flat keys. Also alot of piano players do as well. There's a reason that many times when I'm sitting in on bass with certain groups of vocalist that I tune my 5 string to Bb. |
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