| Author |
Topic: Guitar Tone Again |
Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 5:04 pm |
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I recently clicked on David Hartley's YouTube "Coal Miners's Daughter" with him playing the Sho-Bud. I immediately could tell an amazing difference between this 'tube and the past one he did with another steel (forget at the moment what it was) but man what a difference! Regardless of any differences in amp, effects, etc., the Sho-Bud version was really dynamic and David seemed to even play a little hotter on it. Has anybody any concrete clues as to what gives Sho-Buds their tone, or is this a case of Strativarius type mystery? More importantly, when looking for a near steel, what are some things you can get built into one to increase your chances of better guitar tone (all the other factors notwithstanding)? A wood neck instead of aluminum? certain pickups?  |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 6:16 pm
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Some ShoBuds sound blah, just like any other brand. There is a certain something in some instruments regardless of brand.
I think it's along the lines of how things vibrate, and if their parts are somehow sympathetic. Did you ever play several electric guitars unplugged and then choose THE one from among them? I'd bet it was because the guitar fit you best, resonated most fully and had a sweet harmonicaly pleasing tone.
Old guitars DO sound different to my ears, but I wonder if I heard 20 guitars, old and new, blindfolded, if I could tell which was old and which was new. Some, yes.
I think many new guitars sound basically the same. The parts are uniform and so are the tolerances in the componants, the materials are even in almost every way, and the pull-systems are near perfect. One thing I like about old guitars is the slop in the pull-system. Yeah, I hate it too. But there is a certain thing you get by having a less imediate pull of a note and it's hard to get on some new guitars with their "positive" feel. Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35 |
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Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 4:22 pm
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| Thanks, Rick, good insights. I've been doing some thinking. And Bill Rudolf (of Williams Guitars) gave me some interesting facts on the differences of aluminum necks and wood necks on steels. Verrry interesting.... (most of you guys out there probably know about them, but it's new to me.) Bill always takes the time and answers questions right away, great guy! |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 3:12 am
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Sho~Bud and Emmons are only guitars that will always have their own distinctive tone, in 25 years I never played Sho~Bud that had a "blah" tone, they all sounded great, and they all had that recognizable Sho~Bud zing to them... other steels may sound good, but if you sit behind the Sho~Bud, you will know it's a Sho~Bud
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https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
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Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 4:49 pm
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| Damir I've never had the good fortune to sit behind one, but i agree with you because if i can tell that they are a quantum leap better in sound than anything i've heard, just from recordings and videos, and me being an amateur, that must be writing on the wall. i don't have much experience playing steel, but i've always been into the tones that come out of electric guitars and amps, so much that i've always paid more attention to the instrumentation than to the lyrics of songs. I'm more into the instrumentality of music than to the lyrics and message. i listen to Lloyd Green's recordings over and over. i've probably listened to "Just out of my reach" by him a couple hundred times and still get blown away. "Bars of Steel too". The funny thing is, getting back to Sho-Buds, compared to Lloyd Green's attack of the strings and sudden surprises and turns, David Hartley's approach is more conservative in his string attack and the tones he produces are somewhat, what would the word be, "inhibited" or maybe predictable, not that he is not a fantastic player-- but his approach is different. BUT!!! listen and look at him playing Coal Miner's Daughter on his Sho-Bud--- He seems transformed! the smile on his face is different than usual. You can tell he's REALLY digging that Sho-Bud! Wonder if he makes a comment on it somewhere. Ok i'll stop my rambling now.... |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 6:20 pm
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Damir, you are right. I've not heard a "blah" one either I guess.
What I really meant is that they don't all sound the same, and some really do sound "better" than others. For example: a round-front Pro II with barrels behind 2-hole pullers is considered to be a "holy grail" tone, while a Super-Pro is a great sounding Bud. Both are fine sounding, but one is more desirable tonally...maybe not mechanically though.
They all do have a certain quality, like the Emmons and the ZB etc. I really love the Sho~Bud tone and my next steel will be an old Professional or even Fingertip. Not any time soon, I'm sinking all my cash..and my Carter (now Dave O'Brien's) into a Koa Weiessenborn. I'll suffer with my '66 Sho~bud till I get some money  
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35
Last edited by Rick Abbott on 6 Mar 2015 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 6:34 pm
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Some Buds are great, others are mutts,as far as tone goes.. The majority sound terrific, but I have seen a few "dead sounding" buds as well.. As our friend Jim Palanscar once said to me in a phone conversation,
"Some pieces of wood have no business being in a steel guitar"..
Davids Bud sounded very good on coal miners daughter, but anything that guy plays sounds fantastic...
that being said, his other YT rendition of the same song played on a Rains sounded better to my ears .. I liked the sound of the rains better than the bud, and believe me, I LOVE the sound of Sho Bud steels... That rains steel sounded so sweet... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Josh Braun
From:
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2015 2:55 pm
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Gotta respectfully disagree. There was an old Sho Bud Professional in pretty bad shape for sale at a local guitar store up here in MN about 2 years ago (also, the store knew nothing about steels). It did not sound good at all. I chalked it up to neglect, but it did have the original pickup - just not a pleasing tone.
I contrast that with the majority of Sho Buds I've heard and just consider it either an aberration or indicative of needing a major tune-up. But it did make me leery of buying a Professional sight unseen from a dealer that doesn't specialize in steels. YMMV.
| Damir Besic wrote: |
| Sho~Bud and Emmons are only guitars that will always have their own distinctive tone, in 25 years I never played Sho~Bud that had a "blah" tone, they all sounded great, and they all had that recognizable Sho~Bud zing to them... other steels may sound good, but if you sit behind the Sho~Bud, you will know it's a Sho~Bud |
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Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2015 4:53 am
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Rick asks:
".... when looking for a near steel, what are some things you can get built into one to increase your chances of better guitar tone (all the other factors notwithstanding)? A wood neck instead of aluminum? certain pickups?"
That question, although a great one, is the basis for thousands upon thousands of posts and conversations. What to get? What to spend one's hard-earned money on? A pedal steel can and usually does cost quite a bit, so a person really wants to "get it right the first time." Or the second. Or the third.
I'd say keep in mind that there are several brands and models where it's tough to go wrong. On the other end, there are many that I would steer clear of or, others' opinions to the contrary. For example, ya' might want to walk away from a Sho-Bud Crossover but look closely at other models.
No matter what you get, a huge factor is whether the steel is set up and adjusted properly. Huge. I don't know how many Emmons I've gotten that, when bought, played poorly because they were out of adjustment. They didn't come from the factory that way but were changed by previous owners. After they were set up by someone who really knew how to do that they played and sounded great.
THe problem there is that a newbie doesn't know what "in adjustment" feels or sounds like. THey do not have any frame of reference for comparison. So, whatever used steel you get, get it adjusted by a known "guru" and not by your some buddy, friend or local Guitar Center tech. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2015 7:28 am
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Eric says
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| THe problem there is that a newbie doesn't know what "in adjustment" feels or sounds like. THey do not have any frame of reference for comparison. |
Great advice - If I might add, find a steel that "speaks" to you. You like the way it looks, you just like it & have done some research. You wouldn't buy a '72 Volvo unless you know something about Volvos or have a good trusted volvo person look at it would you?
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2015 2:28 pm
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("near steel" --typo, shoulda been "new" )
Yeah I'm too much of a newbie to look for things that are wrong and copedants and set ups of a used guitar. I pretty much have come to the conclusion that i'll go with what i just started getting used to--and what i was very happy with-- a Williams. Had a new 2005 SD10 with BL710. had a vertical KL added and a 4th pedal but can't remember what that pedal did. I still have my invoice so it should be able to be recalled by Bill. (memory recalled, not the other recall, ha). I want to go with the same except this time with a wood neck and BL705. That should work for me! (now all i have to do is cough up about $3,800 (ha!) 
thanks for the replies everyone! |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 20 Mar 2015 5:01 pm
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| ...Davids Bud sounded very good on coal miners daughter, but anything that guy plays sounds fantastic... |
This (IMHO) is the most important thing here. A world class player like David will make ANY guitar sound good. The biggest difference I hear between the Sho~Bud and Rains versions is that the delay is more prominent and eq a little brighter in the high mids on the 'Bud version. The great sustain David gets come from his technique much more than his guit. (I personally like the smoother tone on the Rains version better). |
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Rick Vizzi
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2015 5:13 pm
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i don't know, Ian.... my ears (as damaged as they are) hear a great difference in those guitars from each other... and the proof for me is that David's technique and touch is, for all practical purposes, the same. a "controlled experiment" if you will... same player, two different guitars.... to my ears, much different. I acknowledge that a preference is personal too.  |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 20 Mar 2015 6:34 pm
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I didn't say they don't sound different, but I don't think it's a 'great difference.' The Rains guitar has a George L's humbucking pickup which has a somewhat warmer, smoother tone vs. the single coil on the Bud. The delay settings are definitely different too, so its not really a controlled experiment. The point is that if you hear a great player like David producing a sound that you happen like on a particular guitar, the guitar is not the most significant factor in that sound.
I own two Sho~Buds, they both sound a little different, I also have a PP Emmons and a BMI, they sound different too. The biggest tonal difference is in BMI, which has a humbucking pickup vs. single coils on the others. I've owned a Sierra, a Carter, an old Fender too. The way they feel when I play them is way more significant to me, and they all feel a little different. The BMI has a super light pedal action which is great if I want play barefoot, the Emmons is stiffer, but I like it best, very smooth and solid. The Buds are somewhere in between. I personally don't use a lot of effects, but I can tweak the eq and make any of them produce the tone I like.
I am also quite certain that David could make any of my guitars sound much better than I am able to. |
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Greg Johnson
From:
Greencastle, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 6:41 am
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I wonder can anyone tell me how many old Sho-Buds are still being gigged though? Or has it become a specialty for home and studio use only?
Would you take a Pro 1 on the road, or depend on a newer guitar with updated mechanics?
_________________
MSA CLassic SD-10
92 Emmons LII
79 Super Pro
Quilter TT
Evans FET 500
Fender Twin 65 RI
American Takimine |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 9:58 am
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If it were gone through and worn parts replaced, I'd take a Pro 1 anywhere. If someone else carried it.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 1:08 pm
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Overlooking that he's playing the songs far differently on each, and the recording method is different, I mostly hear more highs and presence on the 'Bud, as well as some scoop in the midrange. The Raines sounds much flatter, sorta fatter and softer, but changing the EQ could do a lot more to make them sound similar. Many people overlook the fact that when players choose a different guitar, they're usually not trying to make them sound the same. If they did, and if their sound-chain had good EQ capability, the differences would likely be far less noticeable.
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