The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic What is wrong with this copedent
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  What is wrong with this copedent
Joe Huggins

 

From:
Bear River City,Utah, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 1:48 pm    
Reply with quote

Only been a steel guitar player since Christmas and already have a second guitar. I bought it from a friend but I wounder about the copedent. The RNL drops string 6 to the same pitch as string 7. That would make no sense to me. Hoping some one will clue me in here.


_________________
Stage One, Nashville 112, Way more desire than ability


Last edited by Joe Huggins on 22 Feb 2015 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Mark van Allen


From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 1:55 pm    
Reply with quote

Hi Joe, At first glance things like that don't make sense, but there are "many ways to use a note"… That guitar is fully loaded for most modern changes as is. That set of changes on RKL are some of my favorites, I have that exact setup on most of my guitars. The F# can be used as a unison with string 7, but mostly it's used as a melody note or moving tone within a chord, and to get things like alternate positions for dominant chords along with the B pedal and E lower. If you do a forum search for G# to F# you should find a bunch of discussions on this change, as well as a link to (I believe Greg Cutshaw's) tab showing a bunch of licks using it. Buddy Emmons does some beautiful stuff with the combinations on several of his albums and courses. Have fun!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Howard Parker


From:
Maryland
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 1:56 pm    
Reply with quote

Is it "split" with the B pedal to give you a "G"?
h
_________________
Howard Parker

03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
Listowner Resoguit-L
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Mike Fried

 

From:
Nashville, TN, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 1:58 pm    
Reply with quote

Joe, that's a very common change that was popularized years ago by Buddy Emmons, I believe. It's used mainly for its 3rd to 2nd (or reverse) motion in pedal-up position, or in combination with the E-Eb lever for a I to a V chord. When looking only at chord tones, it is redundant with the 7th string, but it makes for some very useful and pretty moves. Also, if your steel allows for "split tuning", you can combine it with your second pedal for a G note to give you a pedals-up (E) minor or a pedals down (A) dominant 7th. All in all, it's my second-most-used knee lever, FWIW. Hope that helps!
_________________
Visit my music page at http://facebook.com/drfried
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 1:59 pm    
Reply with quote

Joe, it acts as the inverse of the A pedal.
Also, when split with the AB pedals, you get an A7 chord.
It's a MARVELOUS change.
Welcome to the pedal steel guitar!
It makes the most sense to think of the steel in terms of chords and harmony, you're smoothly bending 3 to 2 (or if you have the D# lever engaged, you drop 5 to 4: from the AF position, drop 5 to 4).
I'll look through my demo/discussion videos, and see if I have one addressing it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger

Gerald Shaw

 

From:
Florida, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 2:00 pm    
Reply with quote

Nothing wrong with that copedent. The six string full tone drop is common. Looks pretty good to me.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joe Huggins

 

From:
Bear River City,Utah, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 2:15 pm    
Reply with quote

Well, I was just getting used to my Stage One and then this thing came along and I didn't understand why you would want that change but I thank you all and will wait for the chance to use it.
_________________
Stage One, Nashville 112, Way more desire than ability
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Tim Brady

 

From:
Ohio, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 2:15 pm    
Reply with quote

You can lower that 6th string a whole tone, to a 2nd of the open E chord (at fret zero), to that F#. Then, when you let it back off, the 6th string returns to the 3rd. (It sounds something like rocking on your A pedal with your B pedal down out of the closed position, A chord at fret zero.)

Also, you can go all the way from that F# to an A (suspended 4th) by engaging the B pedal, too. That whole thing can be made to sound good.

Then, too, I think some players might use a split, or something like that, on the 6th string, to get a G (dominant 7th in A chord) with A and B pedals down.

I don't use the change, but I know some players do use it. Also, I think that I have heard it used on recordings.

Th 9th string is a dominant 7th, so it might open up some chordal possibilities in the open position.

Anyway, I hope that helps a little.
_________________
Tim Brady
View user's profile Send private message

Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 4:20 pm    
Reply with quote

Here's John Hughey making good use of the 6th string lower to F#. It is on his right knee right. Look at timestamps: 0:22 (He uses it with the B pedal with a split tuner to get a 7th in the pedals down position, along with the A pedal on string 5), 0:31, 0:52. 0:56 and some more throughout the song. At 0:52, he uses it by itself to get the same move as letting of the A pedal in the pedals down position. The others, he uses with the E to D# lever (his left knee left) to make the 1 chord that is two frets below the pedals down position.

I notice that you only have string 1 going to a G. I have seen some that raise 1 to G and D# to E, but more often you will see string 1 raised to a G# and 2 to an E. Besides the many, many licks using the unison note with string 3, using both the 1 & 2 strings move what is 3rd and 5th of a B chord up to the 1 & 3 of the E chord. John uses this change at 1:49. Sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvFYj9-LU80&list=PL4B28A074256BE7D0

Remember: To quote a world famous philosopher, oh wait. it was only me. Laughing It's not the note, it's how you get to it and what you can do with it. You can't get that stuff with just the F# on string 7. There are some that raise string 7 from F# to G#, but they can't move the string from F# to A, without moving the bar or slanting the bar.

The 6th string lower is my 3rd most used lever, behind the E raises & lowers. You'd have to shoot me in the head before I'd give up that change.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

John Booth


From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 5:53 pm    
Reply with quote

I have that drop on the 6th and I really like it.
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
..................................
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 6:13 pm    
Reply with quote

Good catch, Richard.
Joe, if you're going to bring 2 to E, take 1 to G#.
If you're only gonna take 1 to G, stop pulling 2 to E.
I have a 0 pedal that pulls 1 & 2 to G# and E, and a knee that raises 1 to G and lowers 6 to F#
The raise 1 to G/lower to F# is an OLD change, was on an Emmons instructional course in the 70s. The 1 & 2 raise is more modern.
Some people combined the two, but my vocabulary has evolved with the G on the 1st as a positive thing and I didn't want to get used to a half-stop.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger

Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 6:59 pm    
Reply with quote

A guy I was giving lessons to, had the first string to G and the second string to E. He said it was a nice way to get the minor in the no pedals position. Then he ripped me off. I lent him several albums that are no longer in print. Then he moved and didn't give them back.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joe Huggins

 

From:
Bear River City,Utah, USA
Post  Posted 22 Feb 2015 7:33 pm    
Reply with quote

OK, so I raised my 1 string pull to G#. That is probably what it was. My Stage One only went to G but it didn't have a pull on 2. Besides, those guys who only pull it to G have a bad reputation and I want no part of that.
_________________
Stage One, Nashville 112, Way more desire than ability
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Charlie McDonald


From:
out of the blue
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 3:28 am    
Reply with quote

Richard Sinkler wrote:
Then he ripped me off. I lent him several albums that are no longer in print. Then he moved and didn't give them back.
It just proves he was wrong about the G.

I'd lose string 7 before I'd lose The G#->F# lower.
The opportunity for a split with pedal B is too good to pass up.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Jack Stoner


From:
Kansas City, MO
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 5:10 am    
Reply with quote

That listed setup is how I've had my Franklin for years. Except I have the 7th string F# to G raise on the RKR and I split the 6th string lower with the B pedal.

I also have the LKV push up that lowers (and splits) the 5th and 10th strings.

The setup you list is the stock factory 3 pedal/4 knee lever setup on my wife's GFI S-10. It was also the stock factory 3 pedal/4 knee lever set up on a Carter.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Justin Griffith


From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 12:00 pm    
Reply with quote

I have that exact setup on my guitars. I do not raise the second on my P/P though.
_________________
Emmons/Sho~Bud/Blanton, Fender/Peavey.
Telonics pedal
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 1:07 pm    
Reply with quote

Richard Sinkler said. Oh, that's me.
Quote:
I notice that you only have string 1 going to a G. I have seen some that raise 1 to G and D# to E, but more often you will see string 1 raised to a G# and 2 to an E. Besides the many, many licks using the unison note with string 3, using both the 1 & 2 strings move what is 3rd and 5th of a B chord up to the 1 & 3 of the E chord. John uses this change at 1:49. Sweet.


Something I forgot to mention, is with the raising of string 2 to E, you can get the E to D lower on the knee levers as John did in this lick. He hits the changes on the first and second strings with RKR, and let's off it and hits his RKL which lowers string 2 to D. An incredibly sweet move. Great way to move into that E7th.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 2:29 pm    
Reply with quote

Richard, if you have the 2 raise on the floor, or on a different leg from the 2nd string lower (Like I said, I raise the 2nd on a 0 pedal, my whole tone lower is on RKR), you can pull it to E and then drop it back down to a D.
I did that a few times on this video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUykptG6DBQ
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger

Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 3:48 pm    
Reply with quote

I actually have the 1st & 2nd string raises on my 5th pedal, next to my "A" pedal.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2015 3:51 pm    
Reply with quote

I agree with Gerald. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that copedant. Mr. Green
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Fred Glave


From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2015 12:06 pm    
Reply with quote

That's the exact copedent that I use, except I also have a LKV to lower Bs 1/2 step. Very good set up.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Joe Huggins

 

From:
Bear River City,Utah, USA
Post  Posted 28 Feb 2015 10:47 am    
Reply with quote

So Mickey Adams threw me a curve with a 7 string half tone raise for a 7th chord in his Amazing Grace video. If I remember right he had strings 5,6,7,A & B pedals and the half tone raise on 7 which I think gives a root on 6, a 3rd on 5, and a 7th on 7. I dont have a 7 string raise but I do have a full tone lower on 6. If I combine the full tone lower on 6 with the half tone raise with the B pedal (is that what you call a split?) that should give me the 7th on 6 and a 3rd on 5. Maybe that is enough but if not I can go up to string 3 and get the root back or down to 8 and get the 5th. Am I working this out right? I don't have my guitar at the moment to try this out.
_________________
Stage One, Nashville 112, Way more desire than ability
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 28 Feb 2015 2:26 pm    
Reply with quote

That is what we call a split. But to make it work, your guitar would probablyneed to have a split tuner installed. This can be either the screws in the changer housing, or an extra raise rod installed on the lever that lowers string 6. The extra rod is the method used on my guitar. This is how it is tuned:
1. Tune string 6 open with the tuning key
2. Tune the raise to A with the regular raise nylon tuner
3. With th A pedal still pressed, engage the lower and tune the G note with THE REGULAR LOWER NYLON TUNING NUT.
4. With just the lever activated, you will probably notice the F# note is flat. That is why we have that extra raise rod on the knee lever. With just the lever, tune that new nylon tuner to bring the F# up to be in tune.

The crew in the changer housing, I don't know how that works.

If you don't have the split tuner installed, you can get the parts to add one. Or, you can choose which you would use more, the G note, or the F# note and tune that note to be in tune.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP