What's a good/great electrified resonator?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I have a Gretsch dobro, the new one with the Fishman Nashville pickup. I plug that into a Fishman JD pedal, then into a Countryman DI, and then one line to the house and one line to a Fishman Loudbox. So it seems to be all pretty good equipment.

But it feeds back real easily (when used with a loud country rock band), and I'm unhappy with the tone I'm getting. The lower strings are mushy; both acoustically and electrically. I end up playing everything on the top 3 or 4 strings (standard open G tuning). I know my technique has to be considered, but this dobro just seems dead.

It's conceivable I could buy a top of the line resonator, but it has to be electrified to be of use on stage with the groups I work with.

What can you recommend? I want a crisp, clear response from the lower strings, like I've heard on many recordings.

Can my Gretsch be modified to improve it's sound significantly? If so, how?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Jean-Sebastien Gauthier · From: Quebec, Canada

Maybe its your guitar but the Fishman Nasville pickup + the JD pedal is very a winner for me. I found that if I have to play loud gig without feedback and keep a good tone I need an EQ. I use a R.L. Baggs Para DI to keep control of the tone, feedbacking frequency and gain on stage.

http://www.lrbaggs.com/preamps/para-di-acoustic-preamp

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i've always wanted to try (but haven't yet) plugging my dobro with lace pickup through the new tom bradshaw resonator pedal and just into my steel amp (and volume pedal). it seems to me this should work. cheap and easy.

Dennis Saydak · From: Manitoba, Canada

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Make sure the trim pot on the side of the Aura pedal is turned up all the way. For some reason Fishman ships the pedal with the trim turned down. You'll get feedback trying to get past that gain stage.

You should be able to wail with that setup.

As far as the acoustic properties, a lot of those guitars need setup work right out of the box. That's more $$ potentially a LOT more money since the pickup is actually the bridge insert and may have to be replaced.

h
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Howard Parker

03\' Carter D-10
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Bill Adams · From: Durango, Colorado

Howard +1. Is everyone listening to Howard??? He is one of the more knowledgable people on this subject worldwide.

Paul, a few other things to consider: -stay as far away from monitors, mains and amps behind you as possible -if your ensemble has large amounts of stage volume, and if you are using monitors and amps on stage just to hear yourself, my experience is that you will eventually run into feedback issues at some stage volume level-no matter what brand of reso you use. They don't call it a resonator guitar for nothing. Let us know how things go. I gave up and went back to a lap steel for loud stage volume gigs.
Humble $0.02 worth.
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Williams Tonealigner Telonics Milkman

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks to all for the input.

I looked at my JD pedal and it sure seems that I could turn that Trim control up. Maybe I'll take the set-up to the next band rehearsal and try turning it up. Thanks for that tip Howard.

Bill: I've stopped using the reso with the country rock band because it just had too many problems, and I usually couldn't hear myself play. It definitely works with a band that has lower stage volumes, but I can't convince the current guys they should turn down.

I have a set of custom molded in ear monitors coming and plan to try the reso again when I can hear myself. However it seems that the resonator gets to vibrating (which causes the low end feedback) when the band hits a certain volume, which is a separate variable from whether I can hear myself or not. I'm not sure the IEMs will solve all my problems, but they might help me prevent further hearing loss.

There is still the issue of tone; flabby, mushy tone from the Gretsch on the lower strings. What reso that has a good pickup (i.e., fishman Nashville series) fixes that? I might actually be willing to spend a significant amount of money if there is some instrument that will make a big difference.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

FWIW...When I worked for Beard and tested the pickups before we shipped to a customer I made it a point to set the trim to MAX volume before shipping. I always thought it was a useless adjustment. The box wuld never properly function unless turned to max.

As for the rest of it. Remember that you can make ANY instrument feed back in the right stage environment, Tele's, strats, steels and resonator guitars.

You do have to exercise some caution with regards to stage real estate, particularly monitoring.

That being said I've witnessed Jerry Douglas playing at some incredible volumes and I myself have been known to play at volumes that I must use hearing protection.

My setup is not that complex but I do carry a Fishman PlatinumPro eq/DI although I can't recall the last time I had to make a feedback related adjustment with it.

As far as the guitar, there's not much I can say without having it in front of me. Are you certain that both pickup halves are actually functioning? If the low side is dead you'll still get reduced levels through the high side pickup. The two halves are actually bonded together at the output jack. If you notice that the low side output is dramatically reduced then you might well be dealing with either a defective pickup or an incorrectly wired jack. It is a very weird wiring.

As far as the acoustic properties of the guitar, I'd have reasonable expectations but, the common wisdom is that specific model generally sounds much better plugged in than played acoustic.

Can you do better? Why sure. You can get a better, serviceable guitar with pickup for approx $1,100 or so. You can get really great guitars for well, much, much more.

Depends where your priorities are.

Hope this helps.

h

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

As examples of the Fishman system:

http://youtu.be/XZ6542whacs

and always my fav Very Happy

http://youtu.be/9_dtY0SM-NI

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Great link Howard. That's the tone I'm after. Of course I'll never sound like Jerry Douglas, but my experience tells me equipment does make a difference.

I assume that's not a Gretsch he's playing. Looks like a bigger body instrument. Probably a Beard Jerry Douglas custom instrument???

In any event, it appears great electrified reso tone is available with the right gear. If I spend any money on this I want to get to the very best possible place first time around. Assume the budget might hit the $3 to 4 K mark. What should I be looking for?

Someone recently had a Beard Mike Auldrige model reso with pickup on the SF bay area Craigslist for $3000. The ads gone now, but is that in the ballpark?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Yes,

Jerry is playing "his" guitars built by Paul.

I have to admit bias because let's face it, have a 30 year relationship with the guy and he helped develop/test the pickup for Fishman.

His handcrafted guitars start at $2K. The boutique stuff at around $4k and it goes up from there.

It's been said and true that this is the "golden age" of the resonator guitar. You've got lots of choices.

It all depends what is important to you.

I'd start with yours. I think something is "not right". It would be good to figure out what the issue really is.

h

Paul DiMaggio · From: Fort Nelson, British Columbia, Canada

I think Howard is right about something being out of whack with your guitar.I have the same model and plugged in and without the Aura mine is even across the strings for volume and tone. There is a video of Jerry Douglas playing a Gretsch and it sounds pretty darn good. http://www.gretschguitars.com/blog/artists-blogs/watch-jerry-douglas-on-his-gretsch-bobtail-resonator/ I hope this url works.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

JD on the Gretsch certainly sounds very good. Looks like he's playing with a capo on the reso. I probably just need to spend a lot more time with the instrument, and find a quieter band.

PS: I checked the trim tab on the JD pedal and it was almost all the way up. I've now set it to max.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Well,

If you come to Dallas bring it with you Winking

I'll give it the once over!

h

Mark Eaton · Posted 4 Jan 2015 3:24 pm

It is out of the norm for these Gretsch guitars with the Nashville p'up to have serious performance issues. I'm not big on the tone when played unplugged, I've tried about a half dozen of these guitars in stores but after all - they are about $360 new without the pickup installed so you can't expect too much - but Gretsch/Fender has for the most part done a very good job on getting the p'up mounted correctly for plugged-in playing.

Paul asked about what can done to make the guitar better overall, and I'm firmly from the school of not trying to make a pearl necklace out of a sow's ear. To me it's a possible indicator that along with the years of playing steel, you've been more involved with the dobro lately than you had been in a long time, and perhaps you've outgrown the Gretsch.

My question for Paul is this: you wrote that you might be willing to spend a significant amount of money to upgrade to a better resonator guitar, do you have a ballpark budget in mind? I've found in the past when the question is asked about upgrading without a stated budget, you'll end up with suggestions running anywhere from about 800 bucks to around $5000, and everything in between.

Unless I'm mistaken Paul is also a member on Reso-Nation or had been in the past, there is currently a used solid maple Appalachian (built by Tom Warner in W.Virginia) with Fishman Nashville p'up installed for $1500. Were I in the market for a dobro to use for plugged in gigs, I would have already grabbed this one. The only caveat might be that it has the older Fishman Nashville p'up with the obvious metal piece sandwiched between the wood cap and base, the newer version has proven to be a solid improvement and less finicky, picture below. I'm not saying that earlier versions of the p'up are problematic for everyone, but Paul Beard and Fishman have been making incremental improvements to the thing since it was first released to the public several years ago.

http://www.reso-nation.org/classifieds/andythomas/appalachian-resonator

The latest version of the Fishman Nashville:

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Mark

Paul DiMaggio · From: Fort Nelson, British Columbia, Canada

Howard, do you know which piezo system Fishman uses? Cable or film? Also which side of the metal clip is the piezo installed? Just had a thought that if I were to upgrade the cone and or spider and it turned into a disaster that the electronic part could possibly be saved.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I just put a new set of strings on the Gretsch and played it, for the first time in several months. I basically put it away while I focused on other aspects of music, including trying to get to the point on banjo that I don't embarrass myself too much on stage.

The Gretsch is pretty fun to play and the upper strings sound great. But I do notice, even with new strings, that the lower strings (5 & 6) lack definition and clarity. I have to think that's in part due to the laminate mahogany construction. Perhaps solid maple would have more punch. Or could it be the small body that doesn't allow the bass string tone to really develop?

Maybe I should quit complaining, and start practicing on the darn thing.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

I don't understand the question about cable vs film, metal clip?

On the current pickup the piezo elements are bonded directly between the upper and lower insert section. Only Fishman knows the bonding process.

I don't know anyone that successfully resurrected a problem pickup.

h

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Mark: Your response got me looking at my Gretsch. My bridge has the metal piece between the layers of the base and the piece the strings sit on. So it's not the latest version of the Fishman Nashville pickup.

Also, I plugged the Gretsch into an amp and then took a screw driver and lightly tapped on the bridge in various places. It seemed that the treble side was slightly louder than the bass side, no matter where on the respective sides that I tapped. It was a very slight difference, and sometimes I wasn't sure I was even hearing it. I could have been just not tapping with consistent force between the two sides.

In any event, if there really is a slight difference in output between the two halves of the pickup/bridge, that doesn't explain the tonal loss when played acoustically.

Regarding my budget, if the job could get done for $1000 to $1500, great. But if it was absolutely necessary to spend more to get the quality of instrument that will sound fabulous on stage, I could go higher, maybe even up to $3 or 4 thousand. I don't want to spend any more than necessary. I don't care about fancy woods just because they look pretty, and I don't want bling; just a solid reso that sounds great acoustically and electrically. Pedal Steel is, and will remain, my main instrument. The Appalachian looks really nice. I sent him an email. Waiting for a reply.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Paul,

A couple of easy things to check.

1. Strings. If reso is not your primary instrument you'd be shocked at how often players change strings on these guitars. I'd replace the strings "just because". I personally prefer D'Addario EJ42's but there are lots of suppliers.

2. Visually inspect the nut and bridge inserts(pickup in this case). The plain strings should be just in the slot. The wound strings should be approx 1/2 the diameter in the slots.

3. Inspect the position of the "Spider" (8 legged aluminum bridge that the pickup sits in). Consider that the pickup/bridge must be perpendicular to the neck. Through the coverplate visually inspect the leg at the "9 o'clock" position. It should be pointing precisely up the center of the neck.

If off slightly detune the guitar until the strings are slack. Poking pens/screwdriver whatever through the coverplate rotate the spider back into the correct position. Bring the guitar back up to pitch.

4. There is a small hole in the center on the coverplate's palm rest. This gives access to the tension screw. The screw is visible between the two halves of the bridge inserts/pickup. Using a small flat blade screwdriver loosen the screw to where the screw is obviously loose. Slowly tighten the screw until resistance is felt (screw head contacts the bridge). Turn additional one complete turn.

That's all the easy stuff. It's odd that the guitar has the older style pickup. What is the history of the instrument? How long have the strings been on the guitar? More then 10 hours of playing time?

This post is my novel of the day Very Happy

cheers

hp

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The spider was not centered properly. It was tilted towards the key head on the treble side and toward the tail of the guitar on the bass side. I repositioned it so it now looks square.

I don't see anything wrong with the string positions/depths as they cross the bridge.

I loosened the center screw you talked about, but from the point of resistance I could only get 1/2 turn when tightening. I didn't want to try too hard to turn it, and risk damaging something.

The strings have about 15 minutes playing time on them. I bought this reso new about two years ago. I bought it from Sweetwater. I'm fairly certain this out-of-kilter spider is how it came to me. I just didn't know to inspect it for this issue. I always changed only one string at a time because I knew that if you take them all off you could get movement of the spider.

Thanks Howard for all your advice. I can't wait to play this now that the spider is centered. The wife was up late studying so I have to wait a bit longer.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

You are more than welcome.

Spiders often move over time. That's not a defect.

Long distance diagnosis is always problematic. It gets tougher if this list doesn't lend some improvement.

I should mention that I'm not enthusiastic about tap testing this kind of pickup. I much prefer hooking it up to your Loudbox and carefully playing one string at a time, listening for equal output between strings. Play particular attention between the outputs of strings 3 and 4. If there is an issue with the old style pickups it often shows up there.

cheers

h

Mark Eaton · Posted 5 Jan 2015 9:52 am

Paul, you are only going to get just so much bass and pleasing response from the lower strings on a Gretsch, no matter how good the setup. Depending on the person supplying the opinion, if one were able to put a number on such things, the cone itself supplies anywhere from 50% to 80% of the tone of the guitar. Most veteran players will tell you that the cone in the Gretsch is pretty decent for an inexpensive resonator. It's the spider bridge part of the connection that is pretty cheesy.

But to get that deep rich bass with the crisp delivery when the strings are plucked that one finds in a well-built American dobro from a small shop, it is dozens of small factors in design, construction, and quality of materials. No different than on a well-built American flattop vs. a budget import.

The Beard MAS that was on the SF Bay Craigslist might have belonged to a friend of mine that put it up for sale awhile back who decided to throw in the towel on the dobro. He is a fine guitar player and singer and does some gigs around the area with b0b on pedal steel.

The Appalachian is a good value, but if you are willing to spend some serious money on a high end dobro I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you will leave your steel alone unless preparing for a gig and will dive in with both feet to develop your skills on the dobro. A quality instrument makes a huge difference. We can give you many suggestions.

We are fortunate these days in Mike Witcher to have one of the best players in the business living in Northern California in of all places, east of Modesto in Oakdale ("Rodeo Capital of the World").

Mike doesn't have the name recognition of an Auldridge, Douglas, or Ickes, but he is a fantastic player, very tasty, and a great guy. His main gig in the past few years has been playing dobro in Peter Rowan's band. He is also an excellent teacher.

Check out the demonstration videos on his website of some different guitars. These were made at a guy's house in Marin County who has a nice collection of instruments. If you do get serious about going for a high end guitar, take your time, there are many good choices these days.

Go to "Slide Guitar Demo Series" under "Features:"

http://mikewitcher.com/
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Mark

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Just played the Gretsch for about a half hour. The adjustment of the spider might have made a slight improvement, but I still hear a weak bass response. I plugged it into an amp and checked the response of each string. I don't hear any significant difference in the signal from each string, so I don't think there is a problem with the pickup.

I suspect, as Mark has suggested, this instrument no longer meets my expectations. It was great for getting me started on Reso, but it's time to move on.

My plan of action is:

1) Start taking lessons from Mike Witcher,

2) Demo some high end guitars if possible (Gryphon Strings in Palo Alto has a Scheerhorn Rob Ickes model, and the Scheerhorn factory in San Luis Obispo is not too far away).

3) Count my pennies and then decide.

Tom from Appalachian Resonators has given me a price of just under $2000, with shipping included, to build a large body solid maple reso with Fishman installed and case (presumably hard). Build time would be about 4 months. That sounds pretty good, but I have no opportunity to try out what I'd be buying.

Listening to the demos on Mike Witcher's site, I like the Beard E model the best. That's exactly what I want a resonator to sound like. But it would cost twice as much as the Appalachian, and the Fishman would be an extra cost.

Any thoughts or comments are welcome. You've all been most helpful. Thank you.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Greg Booth · From: Anchorage, AK, USA

Matt Leadbetter, son of Phil, has a mint National Scheerhorn for sale w Fishman Nashville installed...bargain priced at $2600.
http://www.resohangout.com/classified/7549

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Greg
Kathy Kallick Band
www.youtube.com/user/aksliderdobro

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