How loud are you?

Dan Klotz · From: Houston, Texas

At last night's gig, the volume was OK to start with. It's small corner stage,I'm right next to the drums, and the guitar player keeps yanking up his amp. I couldn't hear myself so I turned up. I hate to be "that guy" in the volume wars, but if you can't hear yourself playing steel, it's impossible to play in tune (preaching to the choir) The stage was so small that my only choices for amp placement was against the back wall, which put it to my right & pointed it right at the singer; or on the ground right next me- pointed at my knees. My hearing is not so good in my knees, so NV400 was loud at that point. lol

This band doesn't have monitor sends for everyone to have their own mix so that's not an option. They were already a band and I just play with them when I can, so I dont want to be the one to call someone out or cause friction. I'm just trying to be able to hear myself but not be part of the volume escalating.

How do you deal with this? Do you ever set your amp as to point back at you, or from the side? Elevate your amp?

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Obviously you need to see an orthopedist about your knees. Get them fitted with something.

A passive - aggressive way of dealing with this is to just lay out. If and when anybody notices that you are not playing and if/when they ask, you can tell them that you can't hear yourself and A) there's no point in playing, or B) you don't want to play something that is at odds with the music.

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

I had a road case for my Peavy 400 LTD. I would leave the amp in the bottom of the case on stage. With its large casters, plus the foam in the case-bottom, it raised the amp considerably. I set it behind my left shoulder, which helped me to hear myself.

I've also used Fender amps with the tilt-back legs. To me, its indispensable to hear myself above the band without being too loud for the mix, or obnoxiously-loud, period. When the other players don't pay any mind to this the volume wars really get traction, and you know the rest.

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

One of the many advantages of using my 2 small 200 watt amps, that together weight less than one larger 200 watt amp, is that I can always turn one of them towards me as a monitor. I can use the other one to irritate other band members.

Even on the smallest of stages, they can be stacked and use the same footprint as one....and can still be individually turned in any direction.

And the benefit of stereo is always preferable. Very Happy

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Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else

Lee Dassow · From: Jefferson, Georgia USA

I never set my amp on the floor. I always elevated it
with a milk crate or a metal stand that I used for years, and have it behind me. I never had trouble hearing myself of course most of my playing was in small clubs. If they played blasting I didn't hang around them long. Tenn. Lee
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2015 Mullen D-10 Royal Precision 9x8,-1990 BMI S-10 5x5-1972 Silver face Fender pro Reverb amp,-1965 Fender Super Reverb Amp,- 1966 Fender Showman Amp Two 15" JBL speakers,- 2006 65 Fender Twin Reverb reissue Amp,- 1982 Peavey Session 500 amp,-1978 Peavey Session 400,Goodrich Volume Pedals,John Pearse Steel Bars,

Dan Klotz · From: Houston, Texas

Thanks for the input. I usually put my amp on a milk crate behind me too, I just didn't have room for it that night.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

The drummer and electric guitarist seem to set the volume requirement.

Having been a gigging lead and rhythm player for a decade, I know one of the issues is that a tube amp doesn't sound (feel) right until it's at least at it's output rating (edge of power amp clip), or, in the case of non master volume Marshalls, when the power amp is in full on clip, which is over 150 percent of rated power.

I concluded over the years that most stages in bar settings required no more than 10 Watts to maintain acceptable stage volume, and 20W was plenty for small arena venues with a thousand or two in attendance and a big stage. This assumes a good PA and band members that still have their hearing intact, and feel strongly about preserving it as long as possible...eg no ear ringing after the gig.

There is power scaling technology built into a few boutique amplifier designs which works well, and also power soaks.

The other consideration is speaker efficiency...the range is from about 96 to 103 db/watt. iirc, every 3db is like doubling amplifier output, so the more inefficient the lower the volume. I personally won't even look at speakers rated at more than 98 db/watt for electric guitar duty.

Eminence also makes a very cool speaker with a dial on it that changes the position of the voice coil relative to the magnet, basically changing speaker efficiency. I have one of these and the concept works better than the power soak, but I was unhappy with the voicing of the one I bought, was a British voiced speaker (Reignmaker) that went overkill on speaker breakup character. I'd go for the other version of this speaker if I was doing it again. You can dial in efficiencies from 88 to 99 iirc. That's a big range, and again, works better than a power soak. It should bring a 50w amp into range for larger stages. There is no excuse to run a 50w amp anymore. The 6L6 sound is accomplished with more finesse with similarly voiced JJ6v6 tubes, and if the guitarist is into Marshall tones, El84's like the TAD Str sound every bit as good as a larger bottle. If the guitarist in your band is crushing the band's stage sound, it's time to take him shopping.

James Jacoby · From: Ohio, USA

[quote="Dan Klotz" I couldn't hear myself so I turned up. I hate to be "that guy" in the volume wars, but if you can't hear yourself playing steel, it's impossible to play in tune! A simple concept that so very few band members seem to understand! I never had much trouble with drummers, but did, with lead guitarists, piano players, and occasionally a fiddler. Why can't they realize, they should be playing differently,(much quieter), when another lead instrument (PSG) is doing a solo or backing line. I've actually had them, have the gall, to ask me (steel) to turn down, when "I" had to turn up to hear my steel to hear it over their volume level! I play a lot of lead guitar, besides steel, and I turn way down, when THEY are doing their thing. What's so hard to understand, about a little stage etiquette?? -Jake-

Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Try the jj's...they're actually an overspec 6v6, more correctly, a mini 6L6 based on their internal design... that has about 30 percent more power than a regular 6v6 and can handle a lot more plate volts than a typical 6v6, meaning it can get even more powerful than 130 pct.

To my ears split the dif in tone between a 6L6 and a regular 6v6 which is a great flavor...

If you purchase through a tube supplier make sure they bear the extra wattage in mind when they select for bias, otherwise it will be stone cold and unusable....great great tube for fender and fender derivative tones.

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

I've been known to place my road case strategically to block the guitar player's speaker from hitting me directly.
Other than that I do the "lay-out" as suggested. They get the idea pretty quickly.
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Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

The cocktail party effect is the louder it gets, the louder it gets.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Billy McCombs · From: Bakersfield California, USA

Never set up next to the Lead Guitar, or Drummer. I'm always as far to the left of the band as I can get. Got to be able to hear your self to play this thing. Playing next to those guys will give you a good case of ringing in the ears. Not fun.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If your steel amp is near you, and you still can't hear yourself, your hearing is probably being damaged by the cacaphony around you. Do yourself a favor, and think about bowing out...gracefully (after saying "It's just a little too loud for me, guys"). If the only choices are loud, louder, and loudest, I'd rather not play at all.

Experience has taught me that if you're playing a small gig, and you need monitors, everyone is probably too loud.

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Indiana, USA

Regarding stage volume, this is what I believe after a few decades.

- The drummer sets the overall volume. Time and time again, pun intended. Yeah, guitar players can be loud, too, but look to the guy with the sticks first. Always. Not that he's going to change his ways. 'Cause he's not.

- Loud bands rarely have an "epiphany" and suddenly, or even gradually, turn down for the rest of the time they're together. They don't slap their foreheads and say, "Dang! You're right! We're too loud! Let's turn down from this gig onward!" Ain't gonna happen. What and who you're playing with is what you get. Kinda' like marriage.

- What can you do? Either set your amp up on a chair, milk crate, whatever, so that it's pointing right at you or do a separate monitor send to a headphone setup.

- It's OK to mention the excessive volume once or twice but, again, don't hope or expect the situation to change. Bottom line: You'll need a drummer with a light touch and, should you ever be fortunate enough to play with a good one, you'll think you died and went to heaven.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Absolutely spot-on, Eric.

It's been my experience that rising volumes levels can often be attributed to one member of the ensemble beilieving that his contribution is somehow slightly more important than that of the other guys so, in order to make his point, he'll step it up a notch and...

Well, we know the rest.

Thankfully all my work nowadays involves in-ear monitors and I have complete control of my Aviom.

Bliss!
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

If it's too loud,I smile my way through the gig and make myself unavailable the next time the too-loud band calls.

A)You can't fix stupid.
B)It's unprofessional to try.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

And going back even further (mid-1950s) I saw Lonnie Donegan and his Group doing concerts at 2,000-seat theatres in London. Drums, double-bass, Lonnie's Martin for rhythm and Jimmy Currie's ES-175 for solo work.

Both guitars went through one small Gibson amp, the bass was picked up by means of a house-mic and there was certainly nothing on the drums.

Those guys created as much excitement as I've ever heard from a band and sound-reinforcement was, let us say, minimal.

Mic'ing the drums??? When did that start? It's gone downhill ever since.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Do we habitually disagree, Donny? I hadn't realized...

Embarassed

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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Best band mix I ever heard was where the pa was for stereo vocals, and every other instrument on stage was filling the room, without pa support, all the tonal degradation that occurs when miking amps, or trying to use the pa as a bass amp.

I agree we try to make things so complicated these days...but...it seems to be the way soundguys want it done...control issue i'm sure.

Too young to have had much exposure to old school band mixes, I suppose, but I was impressed...

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Last night we played at a local dive, with an odd shaped room, and low ceiling. I have to set up right next to a wall. Unfortunately, we have to play mostly rock and country rock, and they want it loud. There is not much to do about it, I just put in my earplugs and turn up my amp. Not enjoyable at all, but the drunks seem to to enjoy it.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Jamie Mitchell · From: Nashville, TN

ideally the rule is:
as quiet as possible, as loud as necessary

for me, as a soloist, that means the ability to potentially be the loudest thing onstage...

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