diminished and augmented

Brian Henry · Posted 20 Nov 2014 2:14 pm

I know that using the number system

1 4 5 are major chords
2 3 6 are minor chords

but which numbers would be diminished or augumented?Can someone help me please.

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

I just write aug or dim
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Chris Brooks · From: Providence, Rhode Island

. . .or write a zero as a superscript for diminished; a plus for augmented, both to the right of the chord's number.

Chris

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Brian Henry · Posted 20 Nov 2014 3:01 pm

thank you Earnest which number would be the augmented

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

7 is a diminished but not the diminished. Any number chord can be aug or dim with a + or o . 7 is diminished already without alteration.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

There is no augmented triad in the major scale (meaning, in the key of C, white keys on the piano).
"Augmented" usually means "augmented fifth", i.e. major triad with the fifth raised a half step. You could raise the fifth on any major triad, for example the major triads based on 1,4, or 5 that you mentioned. I supposed 5 would be the most common. But you have to use an accidental (a note that isn't in the major scale) to play it.
There are plenty of ways to play augmented triads on pedal steel, depending on your setup.

Marty Forrer · From: New Zealand

Augmented just means a raised 5th note, diminished is not as common as half-diminished, which is often written as min7b5

John Booth · From: Columbus Ohio, USA

Just play strings 8, 6 and 4 with no pedals and use your LKL to raise the E to F Laughing

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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

DG Whitley · Posted 21 Nov 2014 6:09 am

For example, a G augmented could be: 2ABF, 6ABF, 10ABF, and 14ABF.

A G diminished could be: 2F, 5F, 8F, 11F, and 14F.

This would be using the "standard" grips of 3-4-5, 4-5-6, 5-6-8, 6-8-10.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

1. As shown above, augmented chords repeat themselves every four frets, so per the example above, if you have a G augmented on 2, then four frets up, you have another and so on.

2. Diminished chords repeat every three frets, so if you find a G diminished on 2, then the next would be 5, 8, 11, and so on.

You can go up or down the neck with that same format. Some folks will throw in the 9th string on the diminished, some don't. It's a matter of taste or habit I guess.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

Jack Aldrich · From: Washington, USA

A diminished chord has the 3 and 5 notes flatted a half step with a 6 note on top (C E G B to C Eb Gb A), while an augmented chord raises the 5 note a half step (C E G to C E Ab [or G#, if you wish]). A half diminished chord (or major 7 flat 5) has only the 3 and 5 notes flatted (C Eb Gb B).
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DG Whitley · Posted 21 Nov 2014 9:39 am

OK, I think I read this wrong the first time, maybe this is what Brian is asking:

In a C major scale chord sequence:
C major, D minor, E minor, F major, G Major, A minor, and B diminished.

In a C minor natural:

C minor, D diminished, Eb major, F minor, G minor, Ab major, Bb major.

In a C harmonic minor:

C minor, D diminished, Eb augmented, F minor, G major, Ab major, B diminished.

In a C melodic minor:

C minor, D minor, Eb Augmented, F major, G major, A diminished, B diminished.

The augmented chord is not found in the major scale but in the harmonic and melodic minor scales where it would be a 3 chord. I think I got that right, but knowing me, I stand to be corrected and probably will be, lol.

My 2 cents, YMMV.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Using "the number system"--I assume the OP is referring to what's called the "Nashville number system"--as I understand it, the numbers are by definition based on major scale degrees. They would be given flats or sharps for any chord not based on a major scale degree of the given key root.

While the 7 triad in that major-scale-based system is a diminished, it's rare that anyone will ever write that, as sonically it has the effect of a seventh chord on the 5, since, though it doesn't contain the 5 root, it contains the third and seventh of that chord, which strongly constitute the flavor of a 5 seventh.
(Wish there was a way to type a superscript 7 in the Forum.)

Diminished and augmented chords are for practical purposes either passing or altered chords, i.e. chords not "in" the key.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Not to be contentious, Jack, but a half-diminshed chord is generally agreed to be a minor 7 flat 5, spelled R, b3, b5, b7 (relative to the major scale). The full diminished seventh is spelled R, b3, b5, bb7 (same as the 6th scale degree).

They are often used interchangeably, or as a diminished triad (R, b3,b5) when used as a movement or passing chord, often in place of a 7th. IE; I-IV or V-I progressions can become I-I7-IV, I-I Aug.-IV or I-I#dim.- IV, and likewise V-V7-I, V- V aug-I, or V-V#dim.- I (Both movements of a forth)

In regards to the original question, As Earnest says there is no naturally occurring augmented chord in the harmonized scale built from the major (key) scale you are referencing, and no full diminished chord, but rather the half-diminshed or minor 7 b5 chord built on the seventh scale degree. While that one (the 7 mb5 chord) is a direct substitute for the 57 as mentioned, I think in most common chord progressions you would see the chords notated by their position outside of the harmonized scale, IE; I-I# dim, I- I aug. etc.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Piston's Harmony book:

The little "o" after V in Ex. 329 means the root is omitted. Only a few years ago did I make the connection with pop music notation which uses a little o to mean diminished (triad but more often 7th).

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Great post, E. "By far the commonest... the incomplete dominant ninth= the diminished seventh..." Bwaa. I love theory. So funny to me how I've done a "180" from my earlier days when "theory" was just irritating math. And now I see it as a roadmap to discovery, understanding, and progress.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to threads like this!
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Charles Kurck · From: Living in Arkansas but Heaven is home

Hereâ€™s my chord layout chart.

Here are a couple of chord finding sites.

Find the chord notes:
http://www.logue.net/chords/C.htm

Find the chord name:
http://www.scales-chords.com/chordid.php

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I find Walter Piston a little confusing, or at least at odds with common practice, when he refers to the dominant ninth chord with the flattened ninth (Ab) as "minor". I can see why he does, but by "G minor ninth" I think most people would understand the B being flat, not the A.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Dan Klotz · From: Houston, Texas

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Charle's chart is excellent. everyone u have that for practicing.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Earnest - thanks for putting all that in perspective so well. Walter Piston is respected as much in my country as in yours, but it is a matter of ivory tower vs. bandstand.
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Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

I think Brian's question as posed is a good one.

And I think there's been some good answers. I'd like to chime in to answer Brian's question.

The major I, IV and V chords and minor ii, iii and vi chords and diminished vii chord in any given key are the 3 note chords that occur when stacking 2 notes above the root notes that occur when making a major scale in any given key. These other two notes above the root will be in the next 2 similar position on the staff above the root of either line-line-line or space-space-space when stacked. Each note is a 3rd above the other in that it's the 3rd next position on the staff.

To follow this pattern up the major scale give you the Major, Minor and 1 naturally occurring diminished chord in any major key.

The reason for the difference in major, minor and diminished occurring in this pattern are the naturally occurring half steps in the major scale between the 3rd and 4th steps and also the 7th and 8th steps, or in C major scale for example, between E and F and also between B and C.

I always remind myself that music theory was studied and written to explain and make into written and spoken language, information about playing music. The harmonies used were played first as dictated by what was desired to be heard by our ears, then the theory of what it written to help explain it. It's not really a rule I suppose.

The short answer is that any scale degree can be used to form a diminished or augmented chord, but generally (as Mark listed above), certain chords within a key are best diminished and certain chords within a key are best augmented as dictated by our ears that detect the movement of music. Other than at the 7th scale degree, these dims and augs do not occur naturally in the major scale when stacking 3rds.

Fun stuff, fellows. I've been thinking of asking Santa for the Walter Piston book this year.

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