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Topic: Why do we have shaky steels? |
Tony Palmer
From:
St Augustine,FL
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 7:07 pm |
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I was watching a bunch of YouTube videos on my tv (awesome! use my Roku box  )and couldn't help notice all the steels were moving sideways when the players used the knee levers. Of course I know this already but when you see it on a big screen tv it's even more conspicuous.
That's always been a pet peeve of mine...unsuccessfully trying to find a steel that was rock solid.
I wonder, with all the sophistication that goes into these fine instruments, why they haven't been engineered to be more stable? Those levers exert a lot of torque on the metal body and they end up rocking like a boat. Thoughts?
_________________
Sierra S10 (three!), Peavey 112 and 115, Benoit dobro, Beard Model E dobro, Beard Roadophonic, MSA Superslide, Dean Nickless custom dobro |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Tony Palmer
From:
St Augustine,FL
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 8:07 pm
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Yes to the older MSA....I used to own one but the trade off was it was a heavy beast!
Real heavy. No to the Sierra, as I have three Session models and they all move...unless you mean the old style, which I never played.
But the real question is why aren't the new ones engineered to be more solid and not move  ?
Maybe cross braces are needed...
_________________
Sierra S10 (three!), Peavey 112 and 115, Benoit dobro, Beard Model E dobro, Beard Roadophonic, MSA Superslide, Dean Nickless custom dobro |
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Roger Shackelton
From:
MINNESOTA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 11:13 pm
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Fender Pedal Steel Guitars used a larger diameter leg & the threaded end was a 3/4" X 10 thread.
If modern PSGs used that size of threaded leg insert they wouldn't sway.
Roger |
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Jim Priebe
From:
Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 12:59 am
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And if a player is hitting the notes, the problem is ????
I've never seen one crack off at the legs (yet).
Cab drop is a bigger problem and it's not even visible (thank goodness!).
_________________
Priebs GFI ('09)Short-Uni10. GFI ('96)Short-Uni SD11. ('86)JEM U12
www.steelguitardownunder.com |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 1:19 am
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With time, the screws securing the endplates to the cabinet can loosen. This makes it worse.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:59 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| With time, the screws securing the endplates to the cabinet can loosen. This makes it worse. |
True that !
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 7:23 am
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| Jim's right. I have an MSA Classic D10 and it's steady as a rock. Heavey but steady! |
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Lee Dassow
From:
Jefferson, Georgia USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 8:49 am
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Neither does my MSA. The BMI'S are rock solid too.
My left knee's on my 12 string are each pulling three strings. Doesn't even flinch. Just a theory but other brands may be weaker because of the type of wood in the front and rear aprons. Tenn. Lee
_________________
2015 Mullen D-10 Royal Precision 9x8,-1990 BMI S-10 5x5-1972 Silver face Fender pro Reverb amp,-1965 Fender Super Reverb Amp,- 1966 Fender Showman Amp Two 15" JBL speakers,- 2006 65 Fender Twin Reverb reissue Amp,- 1982 Peavey Session 500 amp,-1978 Peavey Session 400,Goodrich Volume Pedals,John Pearse Steel Bars, |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 9:12 am
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Just the act of assembling and disassembling the instrument thousands of times puts wear and tear on the aprons and endplates, both the screw holes that mount the cabinet, and the aluminum female threads in the endplates that connect to the (much harder) steel nipple on the legs.
And those amongst us that carry their steels assembled in the van also put great amounts of stress on the aprons and endplates. So and older guitar generally has this type of wear and tear to overcome.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 9:55 am
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The lighter model steels are going to move a little even if everything is tight. I don't think that is a drawback at all, just a fact. Also, some players hit their levers much harder than others. My 40+ year old P/P's don't move at all but they are heavy guitars.
Also what Herb said, any guitar is going to loosen over time from taking apart and putting back together and or riding setup, which may cause some looseness in the parts, legs, endplates, etc.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 11:45 am
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I really haven't had this problem with my ShoBuds and my Carter. I just make sure the legs are on good and tight.
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Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
Rickenbacher B6
3 Resonator guitars
Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
Canopus D8 |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:16 pm
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"Shaky Steels?"
Cause:- Too much time at the Bar. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 3:20 pm
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This invention (called a "Brad's Rack") made back in the '70s solved the problem, but was just too heavy and bulky to gain any appeal. Anyhow, most instruments move a little, and it only matters if you think it does! 
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Tony Palmer
From:
St Augustine,FL
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 7:23 am
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Wow now that's what I'm talking about...minus the weight
On the other hand I wonder if an extra pedal bar across the top would make a difference?
I photoshopped this image to illustrate...
_________________
Sierra S10 (three!), Peavey 112 and 115, Benoit dobro, Beard Model E dobro, Beard Roadophonic, MSA Superslide, Dean Nickless custom dobro |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 9:22 am
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| Tony Palmer wrote: |
| ...I wonder if an extra pedal bar across the top would make a difference? |
That might help a little, but a diagonal brace would be far more effective.  |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 11:04 am
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| Tony Palmer wrote: |
On the other hand I wonder if an extra pedal bar across the top would make a difference?
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What would help would prevent change of distance between top right and bottom left, & vice versa. Tension is easier than compression so a pair of wires in an X shape firmly fixed would solve it. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 11:59 am
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I have very little movement out of my Franklin when operating the knee levers (and none with the pedals).
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit (for sale) |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 2:06 pm
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| Tony Palmer wrote: |
On the other hand I wonder if an extra pedal bar across the top would make a difference?
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My first steel was a "Little Buddy" by USA Steel. That thing would rock if you just looked at it sideways. I was working in a Formica shop at the time, so I built a matching replacement pedal bar. It was probably 6" high and attached with 2 screws/wing-nuts on each leg...4 total. Having two anchor points on each leg made it a lot steadier.
I sold (unloaded) the instrument years ago, but here's a photoshop of what it looked like:
 [/img] |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 3:10 pm
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That replacement deep pedal bar is in effect a pair of diagonal braces - excellent idea. I was thinking how any sort of diagonal piece in the top corner is an aesthetic no-no that reduces the magical PSG to nothing prettier than a cheap folding table.
Cast endplates screwed to a wooden cabinet will work loose. Woodscrews are not designed to withstand the lateral forces. Better if they aren't countersunk, but still not good.
Here is a picture of a ZB Custom where all the parts are welded together.
Looks like it should be rock solid if the leg threads are good. I was summoned to examine the mechanism and I never set it up so I don't know for sure. Any ZB owner care to comment?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill Shipman
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2014 10:19 am Shaky steels
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I have a Nashville Ltd that does that quite a bit. However, in all fairness to the steel, it has been raised up almost 5 inches in height due to my being 6'8" tall. Beyond that, I believe that the end cap design is a bit flawed by only having 1 screw that attaches each corner to the rails. These screw holes have over time stripped out and I am having to put oversized screws in. Hopefully this will help in that department. One other problem I had is that the changer had moved forward on 1 side as the screw holding the changer to the body also stripped out and even putting a bolt through it was not enough to salvage it. Wound up having to have a piece of aluminum attached to the body so as to straighten it out and to make sure it would not break free again.
It was canted enough that my steel repair man thought that it was a 24 inch span and turned out to be 24 1/4. This also caused the fingers to no be properly aligned. Nothing moved smoothly and in fact you could not pull the strings unless the pedals were attached. It was that bound up. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 7:12 pm
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Why? Acceptance, complacency, lack of innovation... "if it was good enough for so-an-so to play "Nightlife"..." In the 1960's, cars used to rattle apart too. Now they're lighter, get better mileage and last four times as long. Because the design changed....  But you can't improve perfection, and everything is perfect. Like smoothbore muskets and lead pipes. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 7:27 pm
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| I'm being pedantic, but the British Army used smooth bore muskets until the mid 19th century because rate of fire was a skosh better and tactics were still skirmish line, until the percussion cap. If you've ever loaded a Kentucky Long Rifle, you'll know why. It's *work*. So you never can tell what will be the priority. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 10:49 pm
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This is Harry Partch's Surrogate Kithera. Note how the body and seat are a single integrated unit. Perhaps if there was some way of attaching a steel to our paca-seats, the steel would be less inclined to shake or walk.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2014 5:01 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| This is Harry Partch's Surrogate Kithera. Note how the body and seat are a single integrated unit. Perhaps if there was some way of attaching a steel to our paca-seats, the steel would be less inclined to shake or walk |
Wow, That is very cool !
Here's the Fender PS-210 that does a similar thing
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
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