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Topic: String problem. |
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:48 am |
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Man, that is a strange looking "bridge?" on there.
Since you're a guitar tech I'll assume you're not bringing the string
up to pitch TOO fast, and allowing it to stretch a little as you bring it up,
and the 3rd string is always going to break first by its nature,
but "unwinding on the ball"?
Man, that almost has to be defective strings I'd think.
_________________
Jb in Ohio
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GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 3:11 am
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I'm with Richard. There is at least an extra inch of string in play here beyond whatever the scale length is. It is possible that this precludes bringing it up to G#.
Note that since the changer is NOT the bridge, the radius is not necessary. The string could have been attached at the top instead of over the hill and down in the valley. If you don't mind a bunch of pins sticking up in the air.
But I still want to know--what is the actual scale length, from nut to bridge? I know that Sierra did 25" scale (I think?) so it can be done. |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 10:30 am
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Scale is 24 1/2", plus the distance from the contact point to the locating pin is 1 1/2". The pins have to be located where they are because the changer they are on pivots off the lower changer, which pivots off the through rod. If they were on top there would be no raising or lowering action.
Paddy Long, if you care to email me bassman@slingshot.co.nz please? |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 11:18 am
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That extra length is almost certainly the problem. I designed a changer that used a roller bridge in front of the finger. Just wouldn't work at the 25" scale I was shooting for, the .011 strings just couldn't take it. My test rig was adjustable at that time, so I crept the scale down until it worked with reasonable reliability. That was in the 24" range if I recall correctly.
I ended up ditching the roller bridge altogether. I wonder if the guitar was built with standard E9 tuning in mind? produce |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 11:57 am
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| Ross Shafer wrote: |
That extra length is almost certainly the problem. I designed a changer that used a roller bridge in front of the finger. Just wouldn't work at the 25" scale I was shooting for, the .011 strings just couldn't take it. My test rig was adjustable at that time, so I crept the scale down until it worked with reasonable reliability. That was in the 24" range if I recall correctly.
I ended up ditching the roller bridge altogether. I wonder if the guitar was built with standard E9 tuning in mind? produce |
Good point.... the guitar was originally a C6 instrument, the PO had butchered it into an E of some sort, and I've rebuilt it to E9.
It seems that my options are
*1: source better quality strings,
*2: try a lighter string still, maybe a .009 or .008,
*3 ditch the G# to A and look at an alternate tuning for that string. Bear in mind that all the other strings work perfectly well with this setup, it's only the one string that is problematic.
*4: Redesign or replace the bridge/changer. Not really an option at this stage, more of a last resort.
Conclusion: I'll try the first two options, and if no satisfaction I'll look at the third option. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 12:07 pm
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or *5: - if you're keen to play it as it is, tune it down to D9. This suggestion will not offend the moderator.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 1:32 pm
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Ian's suggestion is excellent.
Historically, it is has been done before---in some cases specifically for this reason, in other cases, as a matter of sonic choice. It remains an occasionally chosen option. |
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John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 1:53 pm
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Can those bridge rollers(?) be removed?
Am I getting you guys right that you think the offset "bridge" is affecting the scale so much that it requires the string to be so much tighter that it unrolls the ball end?
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:42 pm
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The rollers can be removed, but this will sit the strings down on the pickups. The problem here is the pickups are fixed, there is no height adjustment. The angle from the changer to the roller is not great, the roller lifts the string only about 1/4" or so.
The suggestion to change to D9 has a lot of merit, the only drawback to that I see is that most all instructional material is aimed at E9, and as I'm a complete noob I need all the instruction I can get!  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:46 pm
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Play up two frets. I use C6 lessons on B6 - you soon adjust.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 4:12 pm
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| Thanks Ian for that idea. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 18 Nov 2014 10:14 pm
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Install a keyless tuner instead of the existing keyhead (or move the existing keyhead in 1 inch and shorten the scale length to 23 1/2 inches)
This will reduce the string tension, thus allowing you to tune to the E9 standard |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 1:52 am
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without sounding knarly.... two questions:
1) has this particular Steel ever been tuned to straight up E9th with success, meaning is this a new problem breaking the 3rd string "now" and it had been ok previously ?
2) what are you tuned to ?
Are you 100% certain you are tuned to 440 with the 3rd string at G# ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 2:34 am
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| richard burton wrote: |
Install a keyless tuner instead of the existing keyhead (or move the existing keyhead in 1 inch and shorten the scale length to 23 1/2 inches)
This will reduce the string tension, thus allowing you to tune to the E9 standard |
That's a good possibility too. Some good ideas coming forth. |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 2:41 am
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
without sounding knarly.... two questions:
1) has this particular Steel ever been tuned to straight up E9th with success, meaning is this a new problem breaking the 3rd string "now" and it had been ok previously ?
2) what are you tuned to ?
Are you 100% certain you are tuned to 440 with the 3rd string at G# ? |
Yes, tuned to 440. This guitar was originally a C6 I believe. The guy I got it from said it had been reworked to some sort of E tuning, but it was all over the place. I had to rebuild all the levers, linkages, and reset the copedants to what seems to be the standard Nashville E9, according to various sites I have come across. I have no idea if this is my problem, or whether it was there before I got it, but I suspect it is a new problem. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 4:03 am
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Pedal steel is pretty much pedal steel.
As long as those rollers turn free, so they're not a drag-inducing element, the physics of your guitar are the same as the physics of mine. And Sierra uses a 25 inch scale. Gotta be the strangs.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 5:01 am
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| I have had a rash of 3rd strings break. If I tune 'em up to about E or F# and leave 'em over night I seem to have better luck. |
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Stephen Kuester
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 5:35 am
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| Are you somehow twisting the string while you're replacing it? Maybe that's what's causing it to unwind. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 6:08 am
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well actually the one in the photo is a quite a bit different than all the major designed with that extra bridge, no other brand or changer design has that "extra" bridge down in front of the changer, the changer is the bridge...so we do indeed have an altered scale length.
The physics pull of the 3rd string is on the edge with a stock changer system..adding an additional bridge and extra length of string..who knows. what the additional stress is on the ball end...
One thing we all know, yes, some new strings are bad out of the pack but they are ALL not bad..a few different brands or a new batch identifies a "LOT" of bad strings, but in reality we have each only seen a few of these over the years. Even a changer with a burr on it will allow the 3rd string to last for a while..not an immediate break.
3rd strings should come up to pitch and not break in a very short time..like minutes, less...we don't have more than minutes on the bandstand.
Is it possible to re-engineer the guitar for a test , remove the pickup, remove the extra roller bridge and just let the changer be the bridge to test the pull ?
Just throwing it out there...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 6:48 am
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| The ill fated PS210 that Gene Fields designed for Fender in the early '70's had a roller bridge and roller nut (the changer was on the left end of the guitar). I was lucky enough to mess around wioth one of these rarity's for a few weeks....no string problems on it.....but it had a 22.5" scale. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 19 Nov 2014 6:50 am
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| The ill fated PS210 that Gene Fields designed for Fender in the early '70's had a roller bridge and roller nut (the changer was on the left end of the guitar). I was lucky enough to mess around wioth one of these rarity's for a few weeks....no string problems on it.....but it had a 22.5" scale. |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 20 Nov 2014 10:36 am
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I've had a Dunlop .010 on it for 3 days now, so here's hoping it was a bad run of strings. Or maybe it was operator error! I reset the pedal and changer adjusters for 3 and 6, and I think it may have been that I had the 3 adjuster screwed pretty much right in. I discovered that there's a sweet spot where multiple strings work together smoothly. The joys of figuring this stuff out for yourself!
Thanks for the help and inspiration. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Nov 2014 4:59 pm
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On the subject of bad strings, the o.p. Said that he had the same problem with three different brands. Live Steel strings, GHS and Dunlop. What are the odds of having a bad lot, around the same time, with three completely different brands. I don't buy that theory.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 20 Nov 2014 8:25 pm
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| I think you're right Richard, the odds of that occurring would be slim. I think, on reflection, that it may have had to do with the adjustment of the 3 and 6 being out of kilter with each other. Seems to be OK (so far) since I reset them. |
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