| Author |
Topic: Keyless vs Keyed |
steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 4:27 am |
|
Rich, Buddy Emmons also played a Sierra, Tom Brumley an Anapeg, and Joe Wright a Sierra, all keyless guitars. These are a few of the "name players" who did not just play keyed steels.
As to keyless not having enough room for pedals without interfering with the volume pedal, I will add a photo of yet another Kline, this time with 9 pedals.
And again, the 8 pedal Kline; more than enough room for me. In fact, i would prefer NOT to have to move my left knee farther from the volume pedal.
 |
|
|
|
George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 8:31 am
|
|
Steve..... you're a very lucky man. Just fantastic steel guitars. Looks like you have plenty of room under there.
Paul, I'm looking very hard at your "On-Trak". I may just have to get one.  |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 9:23 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| I think "tone" is overrated. Chops are more important. You can't buy a good sound. You have to play right to get a good sound |
this is the bottom line as i see it.
all of the equipment issues are all secondary to this.
learn to play some good music, then seek out the best equipment to allow you to build on that. |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 10:14 am
|
|
Lagging behind.
Wikipedia also says 'Not to be confused with Hysteria.'
In a keyhead, unequal tension on either side of the nut.
There are apparent differences between keyed and keyless heads as to the rate at which each system stabilises.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 10:27 am
|
|
| Rich Upright wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
(Note: The following was typed before the preceding post appeared, and is not in response to that post.)
The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.
What is important to a player of a musical instrument may include, but goes beyond, quantifiable criteria. |
The same thing with push-pull players. |
There are many who would believe that Push-pull is the ultimate tone. I am one of them. |
And some, like yourself, always want to let others know that they are a push/pull, only, fan. Which is fine. Like you don't want to hear people praise keyless guitars, many don't want to keep hearing about push pulls, and that they have the ultimate tone. There is no difference between you and fans of other types of PSG's.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 11:06 am
|
|
| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
'Not to be confused with Hysteria.'
unequal tension on either side of the nut.
|
....like the steel guitar forum. |
|
|
|
Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 11:41 am
|
|
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Rich Upright wrote: |
There are many who would believe that Push-pull is the ultimate tone. I am one of them. |
And some, like yourself, always want to let others know that they are a push/pull, only, fan. Which is fine. Like you don't want to hear people praise keyless guitars, many don't want to keep hearing about push pulls, and that they have the ultimate tone. There is no difference between you and fans of other types of PSG's. |
I like other tones, like Zum, Franklin, LeGrande,Mullen,certain Sho-Buds,MSA, etc. Just that PP is my favorite tone. I have owned 2 PPs, & hope someday to get another.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 1:11 pm
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
The problem is that the most emphatic keyless advocates argue that keyless design is superior period, as an objective fact, which inevitably at least appears to imply that anyone who fails to buy into it has an inferior understanding of things, which understandably elicits some backlash.
|
I agree, wholeheartedly. There's a certain smugness evident (in a few players) that someone would choose to play something different than what they play. And this small contingent, it seems, is constantly trying to convert others to their own preferences and way of thinking. Personally, I don't give a rat's patootie what you play or what you use. Ability, imagination, and personality are what makes or breaks a player, IMHO.
"Tone" is nothing but a personal preference.  |
|
|
|
Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 1:32 pm
|
|
Kate Upton would not be as pretty with no head.  |
|
|
|
Jack Wilson
From:
Marshfield, MO
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 2:36 pm tone
|
|
| thank you Donny. I liked Buddy E & Buddy C tone when played ShoBuds before they went to Emmons push pull. |
|
|
|
Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
|
Posted 17 Jun 2015 2:55 pm
|
|
| I agree with Donnie,,,seems a lot of push pull players fall into that category,,,,if you don't play a push pull you must not be "with it",,,,after all,,don't all the biggies play push pull,,,,,and us keyless player must be weirdos for not playing what the big guys play,,,LOL. |
|
|
|
steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
|
Posted 26 Jul 2015 4:10 am Brint check your Forum PMs
|
|
| Brint, please check your Forum PMs. Thx, stevet |
|
|
|
Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
|
Posted 26 Jul 2015 4:36 am
|
|
| I would like to think I play better now that I did decades ago. With athat said, I have have had 3 Sierra Keyless, 2 GFI keyless an Excel Keyless and a Williams Keyless and all are great guitars. I would also like to think I am past my crazy days where I only play out seldom so I am down to several guitars. It's all a preference my friends. bOb is correct though about a 12 string sounding a bit different from a 10 string because of the pickup length and or maybe the mass in the changer in a 12 string. The key word is different, not better! |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 28 Jul 2015 6:53 pm
|
|
Keyed or keyless. I really dont care what ever floats your boat. Thats the beauty of it. Its nice to have options to suit different needs. I dont see it as smuggness other wise your calling all of the ground breaking pedal steel designers and builders who came up with great ideas smugg as well.
Now tone. I started on a 74 MSA. Bought and sold a half dozen guitars searching for the tone. Had some really nce ones along the way and guess what I settled on and love my tone. A 74 MSA D10. Ill probably never own a 10 000 dollar guitar or a push pull due to resources I have. But Im ok with that. That goes for pups too. Everyone gets their nickers in a knot over pickups. Your not gonna sound Like Buddy Emmons or Jimmy Day if you try the new flavour pickup of the month just keep practicing.
That is all. |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 28 Jul 2015 6:59 pm
|
|
| PS- My Carter Starter had killer tone and it had really cheap head stock, roller nuts and tuners. I really dont see how a keyless is going to have better tone qualities than a keyed. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 3:00 am
|
|
I've reached the age where I can't remember whether I've said things before or not, which fortunately is also the age at which I no longer care.
The player has the sound, not the instrument. (I am a novice steel player, but experienced elsewhere.) If you praise the tone of an instrument, you mean that it produces your sound more readily than some other instrument.
The presence or absence of machine heads on a pedal steel is only one of many factors. If you are a modernist who champions the superior engineering principles of the keyless tuner (which I am but so what), remember that it's the imperfections in a musical instrument that lend it its character. In the case of the steel, much is made of the length of the spare string behind the 5th & 6th rollers and its possible effect on tone; but those strings are the heart of the instrument, and if it sounds good it is good.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 5:08 am
|
|
I have owned and played 2 keyless guitars, an older Willy s10 and a GFI.. all I can say is... meh... Didn't care much for either except for the small size and low weight.. They didn't play, sustain or sound any better than anything else I've owned probably not as well actually... I gigged both, and they were ok, but neither held my fancy for long and were both banished to the corn field... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 5:26 am
|
|
| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| ... except for the small size and low weight... |
Big pluses for me, regardless of tone - I doubt if I shall ever gig my D10 now, even in split cases.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 6:44 am
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
| ... except for the small size and low weight... |
Big pluses for me, regardless of tone - I doubt if I shall ever gig my D10 now, even in split cases. |
I hear you... 
_________________
https://steelguitarsonline.com/ |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 6:58 am
|
|
Damir. Thats what these were invented for 
 |
|
|
|
Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 12:24 pm
|
|
It's one thing to fight it getting it to & from the stage, and another thing to fight it all night trying to get your sound.
I carry over 200 lbs of D-10, 2 amps (stereo ) effects & guitars to the stage. Heavy, but I get the big sound I want. I couldn't get the tone I want with a keyless single neck & small, single amp.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
|
|
|
steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 3:41 pm Heavy to be happy?
|
|
Rich, Damir is looking to alleviate back pain now and in the future and is searching for a lighter steel and amp. I think he also wants to producea decent tone.
Fortunately, many of us who use keyless or even light keyed steels and only one amp, don't need to "fight it all night" to get that big sound and tone. In other words, we do not need heavy to be happy.
This post deals with lighter amps some members are using.
I love the photo of the Vox amp Tony Prior posted there. Wonder how much that unit weighs? 
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=284438&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
stevet
Last edited by steve takacs on 30 Jul 2015 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
|
Posted 29 Jul 2015 9:49 pm
|
|
That's the 1 thing, as the steel demographic ages, we are looking to alleviate weight any way we can. I just bought a new bass amp that I can lift with my pinky!
Hoping I won't have any trouble lifting my steel since 1 am 2 weeks out of open heart surgery. I can barely lift the bar now!
R.I.P. Buddy.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
|
|
|
Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
|
Posted 30 Jul 2015 6:05 am solution to heavy gear
|
|
Damir there is also this option 
 |
|
|
|
Dennis Olearchik
From:
Newtown, PA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2015 8:37 am
|
|
| I think a musician provides the technique and their equipment provides the tone. |
|
|
|
