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Topic: Willie Nelson's legacy |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2014 10:37 am |
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Willie Nelson has managed to remain a pop culture figure for decades. Young people today still know who he is. However, he's probably more known for his advocacy for legalized marijuana and long hair more than anything else. The majority of country music fans probably know him best for "Whiskey River" and his outlaw image.
I really hope he is remembered for more than that. I suppose his image was his own creation, and it's worked at making him easily recognizable, but his music career and artistry is enough to stand out on its own. I can't think of many musicians who are as distinct as him. A lot of the music he has created can't really be called "country music " so much as just being Willie Nelson music. It has fusion elements to it (Spanish guitar, jazz phrasing, etc.) but I can't think of anyone else that sounds very similar.
He started out as successful songwriter and less-than-successful singer, but then reached his peak in popularity singing his own versions of other people's songs. If there's a pattern to the other musicians he's chosen to collaborate with, I'm not seeing it. Despite this wide variation, he doesn't vary his vocal style or guitar style. He's played the same guitar for decades.
I'm a fan of his, but I'll admit that some of his musical choices for vocals and guitar in live settings is unusual and less than satisfying. Is it boredom, is it him getting caught in the moment, is it marijuana? Who knows. But it makes you pay attention even if you've heard the same song countless times before.
He's been prolific, but doesn't come off as eager to please the way country-pop stars do. He's such a distinct musician that the most apt thing you can say in judging him is "that's Willie Nelson".
And I've said all this without even going into detail about what makes his music excellent and transcendent. When he's just a memory, I really hope that people are able to remember him for these things instead of for the flashy parts of his image. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2014 11:45 am
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Willie went off the reservation. The thing about Willie was the picnics. He apparently made a heck of a lot of money per picnic.
If you'll read Colin Escott's bio of Hank Williams, the same was true of Hank. He didn't make money at the Opry, he made money playing "schoolhouse" shows.
I am not sure how that worked out financially over which time periods. Hank was working with Fred Rose as a producer, and the sale of Acuff-Rose was for a large but never disclosed amount. Miz Audrey didn't have to work SFAIK, even though Hank Sr. died pretty young.
As to his band members, SFAIK, he's mostly used the same people for as long as possible - Paul English, his sister Bobb(i)e, others. I think the thing that Waylon and Willie both innovated into country was... funk. So Whiskey River as an arrangement draws a lot of water.
As to the pot... Willie's on record - he figured the whisky was killing him, so he switched to pot. It just so happened this was the period in which there was detente between the "hippies" and rednecks in music, epitomized by the Austin scene. I doubt it was engineered, but it became legendary. He gets busted now and again and then makes a comeback.
As a younker listening to rock radio, I didn't know or understand Ernest Tubb nor Little Jimmy Dickens when they'd trot 'em out on the Opry stage. I'd say "who's that old fossil?". What country I remember was on KVOO and was more like Haggard, Jones, Cash and Buck. I learned about the Classic style later - mostly on stage. And not that much. But Nashville was not in great shape in the 1970s. Haggard was for a span of time the only artist making money or something like that. I remember Charlie Rich tearing up John Denver's award paper and all that...
FWIW - yep, I'm of the age that I got into country because of Urban Cowboy. Talk about lucking out... that was Bill Szymczyk, the Eagles' producer... but it gave live honky tonk music a kind of second wind... but added a lot more rock emphasis.
I expect Nashville kept the studio system for a while longer than it lasted in Hollywood. Waylon and Willie took a risk and broke that system ( no doubt with some inspiration from Ray Charles, who got his masters back ).
But the main thing Willie has managed to become is a sort of Ghandi figure. I am not sure why.
When introducing The Highwaymen, Kristofferson introduced Willie as "the outlaw coyote", Waylon as "the riverboat gambler", himself as "the radical revolutionary" and Cash as "the father of our country."
Ain't it funny how time slips away.... |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 16 Nov 2014 8:28 pm
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| I've been a fan of Willie for a lot of years, a great singer and great songwriter. As a guitarist, he does something that a lot of classical guitarists don't do, he plays classical guitar with a pick. That's how his guitar, Trigger, a Martin N-20 got the hole in the soundboard. I find it awesome that Willie was friends with Shot Jackson, the Sho-Bud builder and founder. |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2014 9:02 pm Re: Willie Nelson's legacy
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| However, he's probably more known for his advocacy for legalized marijuana and long hair more than anything else. |
That surprises me. I don't think I know anyone who would cite either of those 2 characteristics as the primary reason they know of him.
I think it is tough to say that he is underrated because he is quite highly rated, but I might still say that he is underrated. He is a 1 of a kind original and I have enjoyed his work for a long time, since back when I had long hair and not many public figures spoke out about legalized marijuana. 
_________________
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2014 9:15 pm Re: Willie Nelson's legacy
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| Jeff Scott Brown wrote: |
| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| However, he's probably more known for his advocacy for legalized marijuana and long hair more than anything else. |
That surprises me. I don't think I know anyone who would cite either of those 2 characteristics as the primary reason they know of him. |
Keep in mind that many people don't listen to country music, and that many of those who do only listen to country-pop. |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 8:10 am
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IMO, he did his best work back when he looked like this.
When he adopted the outlaw persona,  I just lost interest.. |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 12:08 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Willie Nelson has managed to remain a pop culture figure for decades. Young people today still know who he is. However, he's probably more known for his advocacy for legalized marijuana and long hair more than anything else. The majority of country music fans probably know him best for "Whiskey River" and his outlaw image.
I really hope he is remembered for more than that.... |
From the few times I've had the good fortune to actually meet the man, I've come to the realization that he's a very spiritual person in that he strives to live as God has taught us: With love and compassion for humanity. Over the years, and without making a big deal of it or drawing attention to himself, he has helped many folks (and I'm not talking about "Farm Aid"). Not too many in the country music business, or for that matter, any business can make that same claim. Hopefully, in the years to come, Willie Nelson's legacy will be known for that as much as his music, long hair and use of marijuana.
He will always have my utmost respect as a person as well as an artist.
| Barry Blackwood wrote: |
IMO, he did his best work back when he looked like this.
When he adopted the outlaw persona, I just lost interest.. |
Barry, I agree with you on Willie's Nashville days. Here's one from a 1962 demo session:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaaRTrFAhYs
But then, I don't think his foray in the "Outlaw" music scene diminished his talent, either: One of my favorites from 1971's Yesterday's Wine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2tw2Yrvq3Y
And from 1975's Red Headed Stranger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf1w66uijqU
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
_________________
Steelin' for Jesus |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 1:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| But then, I don't think his foray in the "Outlaw" music scene diminished his talent |
Not diminished so much as diluted.. |
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Tom Keller
From:
Greeneville, TN, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 1:14 pm
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When Willie recorded Stardust and later Somewhere Over The Rainbow to me that's when he arrived as an artist capable of putting his indelible mark on anything he chose to play. Very few people can do this. IMHO.
Tom Keller |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 1:42 pm
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| Barry Blackwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But then, I don't think his foray in the "Outlaw" music scene diminished his talent |
Not diminished so much as diluted.. |
One thing I've learned about music from artists like Willie Nelson is the process of maturation. His songs have always had a feel of maturity to begin with. In the genres of music that are youth-focused, the fans get hung up on things like this and it ends affecting the decisions the artists make. I don't think "dilution" applies. Who could expect an artist to not change as they age and their circumstances change. If they change in a way you don't like, it is what it is and you'll always have their music from their better days anyway. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 3:01 pm
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Well, I'll put in my two cents worth. He is among the few who manage to stay revelant across generations, like Tony Bennett or Ralph Stanley, just by being himself. One of the things that identifies him is his guitar playing is just an extension of his singing. Hard to tell where one leaves off and the other takes up.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 17 Nov 2014 11:33 pm
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| Willie has written and recorded many great songs. Among these are "Crazy", "Family Bible", "Pretty Paper", "Touch Me"-a song Willie wrote and recorded(Danni Leigh covered the song on her first record "29 Nights" on Decca Records in 1998. Willie has also sang duets with great artists like Ray Charles-"Seven Spanish Angels, Gary Allan-"A Showman's Life", and many others. Willie is a great artist! |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2014 11:33 am
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| Les Cargill wrote: |
| The Highwaymen |
That was one super group, I may have caught their best show together in Honolulu towards the end of that era, Johnny blew them all away that nite but collectively they were stunning. Nothing but a basic stage set up for the band and a quartet that could move mountains. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 6:53 am
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This one - only because we've seldom heard him with the classic country vibe. Steel was a big part of the Nashville Sound, and that's apparently why he didn't care for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knxNMTk9H9w
` |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 7:51 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
This one - only because we've seldom heard him with the classic country vibe. Steel was a big part of the Nashville Sound, and that's apparently why he didn't care for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knxNMTk9H9w
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Huh?!!?!!?  Where did you get that idea? I'll bet if Jimmy Day (The Big D) was still alive he'd say, "wrong" and I'm pretty sure The Big E would concur that Willie feels a kinship to all musicians and their chosen instruments. Check out the albums Shotgun Willie or Phases and Stages. Jimmy Day is all over the former and John Hughey, the later. In fact, if you listen to the glossy productions on his earlier Nashville recordings, most have steel guitar on them, albeit, on some tracks the steel is mixed very much in the background.
How 'bout this one: His original demo of "Undo the Right" with either Jimmy Day or Tom Morrell on steel guitar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZL7v1-21nw
A little anecdote: about 12 years ago, when I was playing steel in the Kevin Fowler band, we were doing an outdoor show and Willie was also performing. At that show I was going direct into the main system. Well, Poodie Locke (RIP), Willie's close friend and 'main man' felt I should use an amp. In fact, he was fairly adamant that I use Willie's guitar amp. I said that I thought Willie wouldn't be too happy to find out that I (a real nobody) had used his amp. Nothing could be further from the truth. Willie was totally OK with Poodie's offer.
This is just my own thoughts; I think Willie's aversion to the 60's Nashville music business was that it didn't allow him the freedom to do his music the way he wanted. At that time, Nashville was enamored with Chet Atkins' pop treatments of country music (string sections and glossy arrangements) and Willie Nelson couldn't reconcile that approach to his songs.
Keep on picking'!
Glenn
_________________
Steelin' for Jesus |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 6:23 pm
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| Agreed, Glen. I've heard some older Willie albums with Day. Some of the finest understated steel playing I have ever heard anywhere. |
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Steve Hinson
From:
Hendersonville Tn USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2014 9:15 pm
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| Buddy Charleton on"Don't You Ever Get Tired". |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 22 Nov 2014 7:07 am
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I was my, er, a, well, er, a, "impression" that Willie hadn't done much for steel since he's got heavy on the outlaw bandwagon.
| Glenn Suchan wrote: |
Huh?!!?!!? Where did you get that idea? I'll bet if Jimmy Day (The Big D) was still alive he'd say, "wrong" and I'm pretty sure The Big E would concur that Willie feels a kinship to all musicians and their chosen instruments. Check out the albums Shotgun Willie or Phases and Stages. Jimmy Day is all over the former and John Hughey, the later.
Keep on picking'!
Glenn |
Yes Glenn, I know about those, but could you name a few songs (singles, chart records) he's done in the past 35 years that feature steel prominently?!!!!!?
I remember "Bloody Mary Morning", and the fillers from the albums you mentioned...but that was 40 years ago - back in '74. So please, Glenn, just give me a half dozen popular songs that he's done since then that feature pedal steel prominently, and I'll retract my statement and apologize profusely. That should be fairly easy for you, right? If you think he really appreciates steel guitar, it should be a cake-walk, since he's released over 70 singles since 1975.
Well? 
We're waiting  |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2014 7:21 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Yes Glenn, I know about those, but could you name a few songs (singles, chart records) he's done in the past 35 years that feature steel prominently?!!!!!? |
I just learned the backing part for the solo of "Angel Flying Too Close To The Ground". That song has fairly prominent steel. Aside from that, it really seems to me that Willie subbed out the steel for a harmonica. It makes sense. His songs rely on a stripped-down aesthetic. Can you imagine if all his songs sounded like this:
http://youtu.be/gDKM31kq5D8 |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 22 Nov 2014 10:11 am
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| Weldon Myrick played steel on Willie's song "Me and Paul" |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 22 Nov 2014 1:05 pm
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| Brett, no steel guitar credits are given for this song either on Allmusic or Wikipedia.. |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 23 Nov 2014 3:53 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I was my, er, a, well, er, a, "impression" that Willie hadn't done much for steel since he's got heavy on the outlaw bandwagon.
| Glenn Suchan wrote: |
Huh?!!?!!? Where did you get that idea? I'll bet if Jimmy Day (The Big D) was still alive he'd say, "wrong" and I'm pretty sure The Big E would concur that Willie feels a kinship to all musicians and their chosen instruments. Check out the albums Shotgun Willie or Phases and Stages. Jimmy Day is all over the former and John Hughey, the later.
Keep on picking'!
Glenn |
Yes Glenn, I know about those, but could you name a few songs (singles, chart records) he's done in the past 35 years that feature steel prominently?!!!!!?
I remember "Bloody Mary Morning", and the fillers from the albums you mentioned...but that was 40 years ago - back in '74. So please, Glenn, just give me a half dozen popular songs that he's done since then that feature pedal steel prominently, and I'll retract my statement and apologize profusely. That should be fairly easy for you, right? If you think he really appreciates steel guitar, it should be a cake-walk, since he's released over 70 singles since 1975.
Well?
We're waiting |
Donny, I'm sorry I'm responding so latently. I've been away from the Forum for the last day or so.
Just to get things straight, my last post was in response to your belief that Willie Nelson has an aversion to steel guitar on his recordings, and that this is based on your assumption that he associates steel guitar with Nashville.
You are now asking what, if any recordings Willie Nelson has recorded in the last 35 years which have steel guitar on them. Again, I'm sorry to have kept you waiting.  Here goes:
1985 - Funny How Time Slips Away album; Buddy Emmons, steel guitar; This an album of previously written hit songs by Willie and others done with new recordings.
1993 - Across The Borderline album: Paul Franklin, steel guitar; Peaked at 15 on the country charts.
1995 - Six Hours At Pedernales album: Buddy Emmons, steel guitar.
2002 - The Great Divide album: Dan Dugmore, steel guitar; Greg Leisz, dobro; Peaked at 5 on the country charts.
2003 - Live and Kickin' album: Dan Dugmore, steel guitar; Peaked at 4 on the country charts.
2003 - Run That By Me One More Time album: with Ray Price. Dave Zettner, steel guitar; Peaked at 62 on the country charts.
2003 - Picture in a Frame album: with Kimmie Rhodes. Dave Zettner, steel guitar.
2004 - Outlaws and Angels - Willie Nelson and Friends album: Greg Leisz, steel guitar; Peaked at 10 on the country charts.
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Steelin' for Jesus |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 23 Nov 2014 4:37 pm
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My computer seems to be screwing up. So I'm continuing with my response to Donny Hinson with this post;
2007 - Last of the Breed with Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard and Ray Price album: Buddy Emmons, steel guitar; Peaked at 7 on the country charts.
2009 - Last of the Breed Tour album: Mike Cass, steel guitar.
2010 - Country Music album: Russ Pahl, steel guitar; Peaked at 4 on the country charts.
2012 - Remember Me, Vol. 1 album: Sonny Garrish, steel guitar; Peaked at 40 on the country charts.
2013 - Heros album: Mike Johnson & Greg Leisz, steel guitars; Peaked at 4 on the country charts.
2014 - To All The Girls... album: Tommy White, steel guitar; Peaked at 2 on the country charts.
2014 - Band of Brothers album: Mike Johnson and Tommy White, steel guitars; Peaked at 1 on the country charts.
I think we can safely say that Willie has no aversion to steel guitar on his albums. 
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
_________________
Steelin' for Jesus |
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