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Author Topic:  New PSG . . . which options?
Les Cargill

 

From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 5:35 pm    
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Buell Wisner wrote:
Les Cargill wrote:
Buell Wisner wrote:
The CS's tonal limitations have become an impediment at this point.
[/i]


Something is way off, then. My Starter has a single coil, so it has a more traditional tone than the humbucker in my MSA 12 string. It *sounds* just fine. They didn't scrimp on the pickup too much.

Starters have cheezy knees ( that can be improved with a lot of patience ), a fixed copedent and funky pedals but they *sound* fine.

Just saying - I'd work with the Starter until you get it sounding good, then change guitars.


Are there generational differences in the CS pickups?


I don't have any way of knowing - but you've obviously gone through everything outside the guitar that I would have.

The only thing was - you say you used a variable-impedance buffer - *high* impedance should sound better. This is true of very nearly any passive magnetic pickup. They like a 1megohm impedance best, usually. A Twin has about a 1 megohm input impedance.

I shoulda said - I was only interested in pointing up that the problem may not be with the guitar. You've added enough info that it's clear you know what you're doing.

Then again, I get along with the Affinity and Hello Kitty guitars on six-string better than the Custom Shop guitars. So maybe it's just me Smile My fingers apparently like trashy geetars Smile
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Bill Moore


From:
Manchester, Michigan
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 5:49 pm    
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You need to try some different amps. Just my opinion, of course. But I have owned Emmons, Sho-Bud, MSA, BMI, Marlen, Rittenberry, Fessenden, Carter, Derby, Desert Rose, and Justice pedal steel guitars. Some sound better than others, but any of them sound good with the appropriate amp. And I've used a bunch of different amps too. All that said, I do recommend you replace the starter, but I don't think just getting a brand new guitar will be the answer. I would not mind having a nice new Williams guitar myself, but I doubt I would sound a lot different than when I play the ones I already own. Smile
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 6:09 pm     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Les Cargill wrote:
I don't have any way of knowing - but you've obviously gone through everything outside the guitar that I would have.

The only thing was - you say you used a variable-impedance buffer - *high* impedance should sound better. This is true of very nearly any passive magnetic pickup. They like a 1megohm impedance best, usually. A Twin has about a 1 megohm input impedance.

I shoulda said - I was only interested in pointing up that the problem may not be with the guitar. You've added enough info that it's clear you know what you're doing.


I don't know what I'm doing as a steel player, but I have been working on the six-string for a long time. That's why I'm trying to simplify things, if you know what I mean.

I dial back the variable impedance because doing so smooths out the treble and the overtones up in that part of the spectrum. Lots of players use this as a kind of "tone" control. It's not perfect, but it helps tame the harshness. To be honest, an actual "tone knob" on the Carter Starter would have been a great idea. Maybe I should look into that.

I use the second input on the Fenders for the same --that input cuts down preamp gain and removes some of the high-end overtones (if it sounded good, I would call it "sparkle" Smile ). I will try a solid state amp at some point, but I'm resistant to buy one for a number of reasons--mostly because I've already got double-duty amps that should be sufficient. Also, the Sho-Bud sounded very smooth and even through both the Deluxe and the Twin.
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 6:16 pm    
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Bill Moore wrote:
You need to try some different amps. Just my opinion, of course. But I have owned Emmons, Sho-Bud, MSA, BMI, Marlen, Rittenberry, Fessenden, Carter, Derby, Desert Rose, and Justice pedal steel guitars. Some sound better than others, but any of them sound good with the appropriate amp. And I've used a bunch of different amps too. All that said, I do recommend you replace the starter, but I don't think just getting a brand new guitar will be the answer. I would not mind having a nice new Williams guitar myself, but I doubt I would sound a lot different than when I play the ones I already own. Smile


Yes, but you have already have a boatload of professional guitars. You're not gigging a Carter Starter. Smile

I have heard the difference between a classic Sho-Bud and the Carter Starter through my amps. It was considerable.

But this is still good advice. It sounds like I want to throw money at the problem, but that's not exactly the case. I just want a simpler solution compared to years of research and tweaking my setup while I'm playing a Carter Starter at shows and in sessions. There's no telling how much money and time I've lost in the long run doing the same thing with my six-string gear.
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 7:11 pm    
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With the Vari-Z knob, you should be able to get good tones from both modes of a 705.
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James Wolf

 

From:
Georgia
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 7:33 pm    
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I must ask. What volume pedal are you using?
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Jim Bob Sedgwick

 

From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2014 8:01 pm    
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JMO William guitars are as good as anything out there. Bill will put a tone control on the guitar if you plead enough. Smile

On the problem of hum in clubs. Those infernal neon signs will play hell with hum. I also advise going with the BL 705 pickup. Single coil sound with no hum. Bill is using the 705 as stock pickup on his guitars. I've played Williams keyless guitars for the past 28 years and highly recommend them.
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 23 Oct 2014 5:59 am    
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James Wolf wrote:
I must ask. What volume pedal are you using?


Goodrich at the moment, James.
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Atom Schmitt


From:
Nashville, TN
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 1:58 pm    
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Sounds like you and I are pretty similar -- I'm primarily a guitar player who just started getting into steel. Maybe 3 years ago in my case. Had the gigs before I had the chops, so I had to get gear that could keep up mainly because I couldn't show up without it. I gave up on trying to run everything through one amp, though. Most nights a Deluxe Reverb for guitar and a Webb or a Twin for steel are the setup.

As I've gone through a few steels now, I'm actually pretty surprised at the difference in tone from one guitar to the next. Same hands, same picks, same player, same amp, different tones. Not night-and-day different, just not really the same. The Williams has a rounder, more horn-like sound (pretty sure I've got the BL 705s but can't remember). It's also got more sustain than any other PSG I've played. Although, truth be told, my favorite sounding steel thus far is an early 70s Sho-Bud Professional with George L E66s, but it's much more finnicky to play and harder to keep in tune, especially throughout the changing of the seasons up here in the upper Midwest.

If it helps, here are a couple clips. Different environments/recording techniques so careful with that, but basically the same rig minus the steel. First song is a Williams 700 Series SD10, and the second one is my late 70s Sho-Bud Pro I S10, both through a Black Box, a Dr. Scientist reverb, Hilton volume, and a Webb 614-E. I maybe used a Carbon Copy delay on the second one too... can't remember.

These are both pretty old - try not to judge me for the clams. Especially in the first one -- it was St. Pats and people were pouring liquor down my gullet all night. I definitely missed a handful of things I usually don't miss. Whoops.

https://soundcloud.com/atomschmitt/your-man

https://soundcloud.com/atomschmitt/rock-salt-and-nails
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 4:30 pm    
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Thanks for the advice, Atom. And also for the clips--they sound great!
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 4:51 pm     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Here's my 2cents on all your concerns:

Buell Wisner wrote:
"]The CS's tonal limitations have become an impediment at this point.


IMHO, tonally, the CS isn't that far away from most of the stuff out there. Most of the sound is in the hands and the amp. Pedal steels aren't like straight guitars - they don't have a lot of resonance in the body and neck, and they're all "one bridge pickup" guitars, with no tone or mixing controls. Tonal variations between most of them are pretty minor. Does yours sound better or worse that the one in this video?

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6652563/Carter_Starter_Demo


For economic reasons, I was going to go used/vintage. However, that didn't work out because I'm not mechanically-inclined, nor am I inclined to wait and pay for service with such a busy playing schedule. Without being able to see and play used guitars in person, I've decided to buy new.

Nothing wrong with that, but if you bought from a steel guitar dealer (one in Tenn, and one in W.VA), you could get a vintage-reliable-ready axe.

In buying new I've cast myself back into my teenage mindset and narrowed prospective instruments by considering what my "heroes" play. Barry Sless, Greg Leisz, and Eric Heywood play Williams guitars, and Williams is an established company with a good reputation. I'm satisfied with the price for a basic S-10 with the standard three pedals, five knees and Emmons E9 setup.

Williams is a fine new guitar, but so are most all of them out there, but steel guitars aren't like straight guitars. A Gretsch may make you sound a little like Chet, but a Williams ain't gonna do zip to make you sound like Greg or Barry.

1) My idea is that a new guitar arrives on the UPS truck, I unpack it, put the legs, rods, and pedalboard on it, tune it, and play a gig. That's what I want. Is that unrealistic?

Nope, not at all. That's why most players buy a new guitar.

2) Am I doing myself a HUGE disservice by not traveling around the country and playing other makes/models? I'm trusting in the "player X plays one" logic from my teenager years, and the clock's ticking on my Carter Starter (don't forget the build time).

I really think you should try a few, first, but it's your money...do what you want.

3) Pickup suggestions? I mostly play '60s-70s country, a bit of overdriven blues-rock, '70s country rock, current "Americana," and Grateful Dead-style rock. I was thinking a Truetone single-coil pickup would be a good fit.

Stick with the standard pickup that comes in the guitar. (Few people know more about a steel should sound than the guy who builds it!) And keep in mind that a single-coil steel pickup will usually hum more that a single-coil lead guitar pickup, due to the increased size and output

4) Any other (important) options to consider?

Only the wood vs. mica finish thing.

5) Anyone able to donate $6-700 so I can upgrade to an S-12 on the chance that it might make playing the occasional Hank Williams cover a bit easier?[/i][/quote]

Uhh..exactly where did you get the idea you need an S12 to play Don Helms stuff? (It was all done on an 8-string non-pedal steel.) Wink
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 5:52 pm     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Thanks for the tips, Donny.


Donny Hinson wrote:
Williams is a fine new guitar, but so are most all of them out there, but steel guitars aren't like straight guitars. A Gretsch may make you sound a little like Chet, but a Williams ain't gonna do zip to make you sound like Greg or Barry.


Naturally not. Those guys are monster players who have been playing many decades--Leisz at least since before I was born. I meant more of the "well, it's good enough for them." Again, more of a case of simplifying the process.

Donny Hinson wrote:
Uhh..exactly where did you get the idea you need an S12 to play Don Helms stuff? (It was all done on an 8-string non-pedal steel.) Wink


Sorry--I thought all that stuff was C6.
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 6:00 pm     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Donny Hinson wrote:
Does yours sound better or worse that the one in this video?[/i]

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6652563/Carter_Starter_Demo



Outside of the playing, does that sound good to you?
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Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 6:18 pm     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Buell Wisner wrote:


Sorry--I thought all that stuff was C6.

Right. Drop the Es of an E9th tuning and you get a B6, one fret down. And I'm pretty sure Don Helms was a 6 string.
A lot of the really cool Hank stuff was Jerry Byrd, who I thought used E13. But you can find the voicings on an E9th guitar. The key is to think like Byrd or Helms.
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More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Lee Dassow


From:
Jefferson, Georgia USA
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 6:44 pm    
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Buell, I've never played a Williams, but I hear that their really good. I have a Wallace true tone on the E9th neck on my MSA D-10. They are great pickups.
I've never noticed any hum, and I've got fluorescent lighting in my studio. Tennessee Lee
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2015 Mullen D-10 Royal Precision 9x8,-1990 BMI S-10 5x5-1972 Silver face Fender pro Reverb amp,-1965 Fender Super Reverb Amp,- 1966 Fender Showman Amp Two 15" JBL speakers,- 2006 65 Fender Twin Reverb reissue Amp,- 1982 Peavey Session 500 amp,-1978 Peavey Session 400,Goodrich Volume Pedals,John Pearse Steel Bars,
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 27 Oct 2014 7:47 pm    
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Williams is a great choice. You can search the forum forever and never find a single complaint about them.

However, if it's possible, you should visit Billy Cooper's shop and Steel Guitar Nashville and check out all the different steels there. You might find your steel guitar soul mate.
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http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 5:38 am     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Lane Gray wrote:
Buell Wisner wrote:


Sorry--I thought all that stuff was C6.

Right. Drop the Es of an E9th tuning and you get a B6, one fret down. And I'm pretty sure Don Helms was a 6 string.
A lot of the really cool Hank stuff was Jerry Byrd, who I thought used E13. But you can find the voicings on an E9th guitar. The key is to think like Byrd or Helms.


Thanks, Lane. I'm going to pick up some instructional material for playing swing and honky tonk in E9 tuning. I would assume that those voicings can be mimicked--no idea how difficult that is, though.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 9:09 am     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Buell Wisner wrote:
Donny Hinson wrote:
Does yours sound better or worse that the one in this video?[/i]

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6652563/Carter_Starter_Demo



Outside of the playing, does that sound good to you?


Well, considering that the store had the audio quality of a stadium men's room, and the recording's made with a cheapie hand-held camera through a poorly set amp, I think it's pretty decent. In truth, the stuff that Terry did was far better than Bobbe's playing, but you still can't compare this type of stuff with something done in a studio using over a hundred thousand dollar's worth of equipment. Truth be told, a lot of players don't know how to get the best sound from what they have, hence all the buying-swapping-selling that goes on in search of "that sound". I know the CS was a cheap guitar, but I think it's mechanical limitations were far greater than it's tonal limitations. Personally, I think you should buy a better guitar because it's a better guitar, and not because you think it's going to give you someone else's sound -but that's just me. I do know that thousands of players have purchased an Emmons guitar to sound like Buddy, but how many really do? Cool

And yes, most all of the Hank Sr. stuff was done on C6th, so just kick the E-lever and play 5 frets up to get that sound. Most all of the Helms' playing was simple 2 and 3-string harmonies, and IMHO you really don't need a lock lever and 12 strings to do it.
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 9:17 am     Re: New PSG . . . which options?
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Donny Hinson wrote:
Personally, I think you should buy a better guitar because it's a better guitar, and not because you think it's going to give you someone else's sound -but that's just me.


The first part of the sentence is my goal, not the latter.

Though I gotta say, choosing my own finish is worth at least a couple hundred extra, right? Wink

Hopefully, my CS won't fall apart before I get my new guitar--it's getting a bit rickety after four years (and I bought it second hand). Otherwise, I know by this point (two decades of chasing tone) that musicianship and technique are far more important than gear specifics (especially if one has a quality instrument).
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Atom Schmitt


From:
Nashville, TN
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 9:27 am    
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If you're gigging a lot you really should have two+ steels no matter what. I'll never forget the first time I learned that lesson. Had the infamous pot metal break on one of my E levers on my Pro I; the LKR, if I recall correctly. It broke at a rehearsal on Thursday and I had gigs Friday and Saturday. Not having a backup steel at the time, let's just say those next two gigs were... sub-awesome. Now if anything goes wrong, at least I have the option to bring a different guitar till I can get mine fixed. I've actually had Bill Rudolph do work on both of my Sho-Buds and that's how I got to know him, back before I had a Williams of my own. Problem is, a lot of people are buying Williams guitars, which is keeping him pretty busy, and repairs can't always get done in an ultra-timely fashion. I'm not sure there's any place you can go to get that sort of thing done super fast, even in Nashville, though. So like everything else you gig with, it really helps to have the backup.

Also dropping the Es or even popping up another two frets and hitting the A+B pedals or moving up another 5 frets from there and using just the B pedal will all allow for different 6th-chord voicings depending on what strings you use. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat... I've heard people play some full-on jazz on the E9 tuning. Especially down on the lower strings you can find a lot of nice little easter eggs in there if you play around a bit. Helps to look for a few of those recordings and pick them out one note at a time, looking for as many different places to play the licks as possible. Josh Turner's "Why Don't We Just Dance" would be a great, super easy primer to learning some of that.
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Buell Wisner

 

From:
Georgia, USA
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 9:46 am    
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Thanks, Atom. I'm leaning toward keeping the Carter Starter for just such emergencies, though I'm praying (figuratively) they're few and far between.

I would love an old Sho-Bud S-10 as my "other" guitar. I briefly had a Sho Bud Pro II that sounded incredible. I just didn't have the patience to get it mechanically restored. Your Pro I sounds great on the "Rock, Salt, Nails" tune.

I'll definitely check out some of the less obvious tonal possibilities of E9. I've still got a lot to learn about that tuning, so probably anything else is overkill as long as I can learn to play some C6 stuff on E9.
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Atom Schmitt


From:
Nashville, TN
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 10:15 am    
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Buell Wisner wrote:
Thanks, Atom. I'm leaning toward keeping the Carter Starter for just such emergencies, though I'm praying (figuratively) they're few and far between.

I would love an old Sho-Bud S-10 as my "other" guitar. I briefly had a Sho Bud Pro II that sounded incredible. I just didn't have the patience to get it mechanically restored. Your Pro I sounds great on the "Rock, Salt, Nails" tune.

I'll definitely check out some of the less obvious tonal possibilities of E9. I've still got a lot to learn about that tuning, so probably anything else is overkill as long as I can learn to play some C6 stuff on E9.


Thanks! There are a few other tracks up there from that night, which was just a pickup gig in which we all guessed our way through a bunch of songs. I had the iPhone sitting next to the amp, so steel's really prominent in the mix, but I really did like the tone of it that night. Here's another old track with that guitar through a 73 Deluxe Reverb, in a studio setting, with just the Dr. Scientist Reverb and nothing else: https://soundcloud.com/nolanjohn/were-not-there-yet-1

I really missed using that guitar the last year so I pulled it out this weekend for a couple gigs, and once I got the amp-re-dialed in, man oh man. So cool. I have a bunch of tracks to cut for another band's album in the next couple weeks, and I'm starting to think that's the guitar I'll use. Those old Sho-Buds are tone monsters.

So different from the Williams though. I kind of think of the Williams as the shiny new PRS to the Sho-Bud's beat up old Tele. It's very refined and looks very pretty, and there are a lot of really great things about playing it, but there's a certain something those old guitars have that's super neat. Makes me really want to try a Show Pro and a Jackson at some point.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 10:56 am    
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My advice is to not over think it. Get a good solid guitar like a Williams and keep it simple. If possible get your information in person from a steel player who gets a sound you like. Maybe track down John Neff in Ga.

Playing steel is a long fun road.
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Craig A Davidson


From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 11:02 am    
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If it helps Bill was just at the Iowa show last week-end and brought a couple single necks for sale. Contact him and see what he has. I own a Williams and a Mullen and both guitars are top notch to me. I have 705's in both.
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Norman Evans


From:
Tennessee
Post  Posted 28 Oct 2014 3:42 pm    
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Here's some C6th on E9.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jZlyQJQh54
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