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Topic: A couple questions on the development of the Uni |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Oct 2014 9:50 pm |
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I was thinking earlier on a coupla things.
1: why not, on the E9/B6 tuning, raise the low G# (10th string) to A# on the C pedal?
Also, since the missing D string has such cool uses in the E9th tuning, why not arrange 7 pedals thusly:
A B C 8 5 7 6? While some double-footing will still happen, it would only involve the last pedal, and the D note is available for use with the A and B pedals.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Oct 2014 10:11 pm
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Your approach of questioning the 'conventional' or 'standard' universal copedent, imho, is completely valid.
It never sat with me that the pedal and knee arrangements ascribed to a d10 should translate directly over to a single neck "integration" in what is termed a "one to one" manner. The one only good reason is familiarity for those who move from a D10. At the root of that is that B6 and E9 are only remotely related tunings, and fail to respect the idea the universal can be considered a tuning unto it's own, with heavy borrowing attributes from both.
Which of course is the practical reason why a good number of universal players, including myself, have departed with convention and organized things to as much satisfaction as can be possible with the constraints imposed by limb and machine.
As for your specific approach on the "sixth" style pedals...I couldn't live with that space between P5 and P6. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Oct 2014 10:49 pm
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Actually, to nuke double-footing, I put about two feet between 5 and 6: P5 lives on LKR on my C6th on the Zum, and it lives on RKR on the Monsterbud.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 17 Oct 2014 11:45 pm
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I like it.
Check out Danny Naccarato uni. He scaled his down to 6 pedals. I think b0b has a copy in the universal turnings sticky
I've been tinkering around with one very similar to Dannys but I like your ideas here too. My problem is old habits. Like hanging on to 5&6 too much.
For awhile I had abc (Franklin 4)5678 on d10. Then tried pedal 5 on inside lkr but went back to abc5678 and dropped f4
I would be whacky with 5&6 so far apart as well, but it's kind of like emmons vs day.you can get used to either one. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 1:40 am
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Tom, if you want a head-scratcher to play, you should see the Rains a friend recently bought. I've been meaning to pick Jerry's brain about it.
8 pedals 7 knees, Day setup
C B A Franklin
4 8 5 7 6 (P4 works both necks)
LKL lowered Es LKR raised them, LKV Bs to A#
The back neck was rougher than the front (I play Emmons)
Back neck knees: LKL - inverse P6 LKR-4 to Ab RKL? RKR lowered 3
Made my brake hurt
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 10:16 am
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Tom is right to question the straight transfer of ABC5678 from a D10 to an S12, although it's one way to get started. But I don't agree that E9 and B6 are only loosely related. They are both E9 tunings - but with the 7ths biased in opposite directions. E9 has a minor 7th on 9 and major or minor on 2. B6 has major 7ths with pedals up, and a minor on P6. If they weren't this similar I don't think the uni tuning would have come about in the way it has.
So it seems to me that how you configure a uni all revolves around how you manage the 8th string, which has to be able to give an F, an E, a D# and a D. You could pick any of these notes as neutral (although probably not the F). On the uni I've just finished I decided to ditch P6, on the grounds that it only does two things, one of which is duplicated by the E>D# lowers; and on the D10 I was finding it tough to roll off 5 onto 6. So my RKR lowers 8 to D with a feel stop for D#. I haven't got used to it yet, but I like it in theory!
BTW Lane, what you said about raising 10 from G# to A# - what would that be for? And why not P7?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 12:12 pm
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Because the P5/7 and 6/7 chords sound better leaving 10 alone. And listening to the old western swing guy squeeze that 6 to maj7 made me realize it's a sweet sounding change. And it rarely sees service with the C pedal strings, so the two stay out of each other's way.
Kinda like how I combine the Tommy White (1&2 raise) with my Baritone Tele pedal on P0.
The more I think about putting P6 on the end, the more I like it. Going to rewrite the copedent of the MonsterBud.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 12:19 pm
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Sorry, Lane, not thinking clearly. Of course none of P5,6,7,or 8 moves 10 - only P4 in some copedents which is the change you seek to emulate.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 12:54 pm
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Right you are. I ditched P4 several years ago to allow the 1/2 raise to go on P0 (I moved A, B and C over and needed the P4 parts), then three weeks later I heard on of Tom Morell's last pedal steel recordings before he went back to his T-8 exclusively. My jaw dropped as I realized the pretty stuff he got from it, and I regretted losing P4. I've recently added hardware so that P4 and the C pedal are on the same pedal (P4. P5 also does double duty, hosting the P6 and "half Franklin" pedal changes, dropping 5 and 10 on E9)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 2:55 pm
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When I acquired my old D10 it had a P4 (in the P8 position), but thinking that it wasn't fashionable anymore I changed it to raise string 3 a half step, and I've configured my homemade uni the same. Having the C pedal do double duty is elegant, but no good for me as I play Day.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 5:49 pm
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Ian, I may not have been clear about the relationship between B6 and E9...what I meant, but u'd have to read between the lines, is that an integrated open string tuning would be better served with an integrated copedent.
So, with that specified, I was criticizing convention that was able to find an open string integration, but transferred a copedent straight across... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 6:02 pm
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I think I see what you mean, Tom.
In order for it to be "one big tuning", the changes can stay, but need to move around to play with their mates from the other neck.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 6:32 pm
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Bingo...that's exactly what I meant!
I did a very detailed comparison between E9/B6 and E6/E9, and the latter tuning was more integratable as it had the potential to use pedal and lever real estate more efficiently.
I'll be giving that tuning a run someday soon... |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 6:49 pm Re: A couple questions on the development of the Uni
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
I was thinking earlier on a coupla things.
1: why not, on the E9/B6 tuning, raise the low G# (10th string) to A# on the C pedal?
Also, since the missing D string has such cool uses in the E9th tuning, why not arrange 7 pedals thusly:
A B C 8 5 7 6? While some double-footing will still happen, it would only involve the last pedal, and the D note is available for use with the A and B pedals. |
I really only use the C pedal for when I need to have a legato change from a ii chord to a tonic or vice versa. Otherwise there's the same chord with E lower, 2 frets towards the nut. I'm thinking maybe the C pedal is optional.It's also easy to forget to put your thumb on string 7 with the BC combo.
For a major to dom7 on no pedals, I use E-lower-(RKL)-plus-6-pedal more than LKR ( raise B->D on 9; lower D#->D on 2 ). I might put an 8 pedal on LKR and add the 2D#->D on 6. The 2 string is "undefined" for B6 anyway. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Oct 2014 8:08 pm
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Les, there's a handful of BC uses that aren't the same as D# lever. I may put up a video Monday...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 8:38 am
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I'm only a beginner but I know what Les means about using the E lower 2 frets down. HOWEVER - even in my limited experience, the voicing of the BC version has a sweetness that the other lacks. (Could this because all the strings involved are being tightened?) I've thought about ditching the C pedal, but I fear a bit of classic country would go with it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 10:40 am
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It does sound sweeter - might be because of *cough* cabinet drop  or it is more likely because the grip that has the same notes uses more wound strings with the BC pedals.
That's my guess. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Oct 2014 10:46 am
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It's that raising action on the thinnest strings.
To quote Sinkler, "It ain't the notes, but how you get there and what you do with them."
The surrounding notes and changes are different, so you can do different things when you get there.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 6:58 am
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| It is easy enough to do away with the std P6 by using a lever as you generally need to do that anyway for the E9th side just to get the D note. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 7:19 am
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Jim, I think I like the idea of that, but I'm not sure I've got any extra knees to spare. That's why I kinda like the idea of putting P6 on the end, much like Moon did with the E-F# lever, for use by the right foot, with P7 next to it.
Since the MonsterBud is still under construction (finally able to use that left bicep, it should resume shortly), I may examine whether I can consolidate or move other levers. By choosing B6/E9 (it was going to be Bb, but I use the open E and A too much to lose them) with the D#-E lever on RKL, there are 5 knees on the left, but they're all doing stuff that I don't want to lose.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 11:52 am
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Lane- how do you plan on getting a 9th string replacement for the D note on the E9 side of things if not on a lever? Granted- you also have to raise the 4th string back to an E note and use the 8th string lowered to a D (instead of raising the 9th string B to a D) and have the E's lowered when you use it on the 9th side of things so that the 4th string will be back in tune requiring the lever be on a different leg than the E lowers but it does free up a pedal requirement as it is now used w both sides of the tuning (if you think that-a-ways  ).
Last edited by Jim Palenscar on 20 Oct 2014 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 12:00 pm
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I think I've got a B string raise on a lever (I haven't looked at my copedent in a while and the guitar is only a third complete on the underside).
I'm REALLY liking the idea of putting the standard P6 on P10, where I hit it with the left foot (P7 will live on P9) when in conjunction with P7 or P5 (on RKR), and with the right foot when using it in conjunction with the A and/or B pedals. After all, with ten pedals on the rack, it won't be far from the volume pedal...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 12:48 pm
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This worked way back when I played U-12.
| Tab: |
LKL LKR RKL
F#
D#
G#
E +E# -D# +F
B
G#
F#
E +E# -D# --D
B
G#
E +E#
B
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The raise to F on RKL is nice.; it allows E13 with -9 on top, or Bb7+9 on open strings.
Combined with LKR it gives E natural on string 4. Without that raise, LKR + RKL gives a almost useless interval bewtween high E and middle D#.
I oversimplified that post to show the E strings. Actually this is what I had (half stop on RKL string 2)
| Tab: |
LKL LKR RKL
F#
D# -D, --C#
G#
E +E# -D# (E), +F
B
G#
F#
E +E# -D# (E), --D
B
G#
E +E#
B
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Joseph Carlson
From:
Grass Valley, California, USA
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 1:35 pm
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| Not to drift too far off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing more about this Baritone Tele pedal on P0. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2014 1:39 pm
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It gives me the same AEA on 10, 11 and 12 that P8 gives to the bottom three strings of the C6th neck. See this. BTW, the drinking works INFINITELY better from a bottle. I plan to redo this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIDfEewtqgI
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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