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Topic: "Chromatic" tuning ideas -Open Gates of Heaven, or mebbe... |
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 7:44 am |
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I think I may have either opened the Gates of Heaven, or the Gates of Heck, depending on how you look at the beginning of what may be a quite consuming project. I had been (slightly) wrestling with how to play rock on a steel guitar, given that there is a huge repertoire of rock slide that needs a
8
5
3
1
or
5
3
1
on top to play correctly. (If there is someone who can really block an interim 6th successfully and sound right on "Statesboro Blues" or "Rocky Mountain Way" - really right - I'd love to hear a link.) But it's easily solved with a D10, I need me my C6th but have been able to transfer a large slide repertoire directly simply with a tuning with the
8 - D or E
5 - A or B
3 - F#or G#
1 - D or E
on the top neck. And to play open A licks in open E is much easier, it's just up five frets but the "flat guitars" don't run out of room like a "real" slide guitar. And all the Berryisms and Keithisms are right there, again, you got to have the (5th-8th) 4th to play Chuck Berry, a 6th there is just WAY too in the way. BUT: I was idly reading through Andy Volk's excellent "Lap Steel Guitar", and in sacred lap steeler's Darick Campbell interview, page 165, he says "The tuning I use is is an E major with a C# on top. I think they call it a 6th..." He's wrong, actually, his 6th isn't on top. He's playing
8 - E
6 - C#
5 - B
3 - G#
1 - E
His 6th isn't on top - but mine could be. Dammit, if the pedal steel guys (and Reece!) can screw around with string order, why NOT play -
6 - C#
8 - E
5 - B
3 - G#
1 - E
In Reece's 12-string universal, his top five strings are
9 - D
7 - B
5 - G
3 - E
1 - C
and in an E9th pedal tuning, it's
9 - F#
7 - D#
3 - G#
1 - E
But you could just get the 6th out of the WAY, but still have it there - and that's when my brain said "BLOOEY!" Because, the original "chromatic" strings of the pedal guitar evolved string-by-string, originally on the bottom then top. But there's no specific REASON it's exactly that way, just history. There's no theoretical RULE that says you HAVE to have the 1 - 3 on "top" with the chromies above them, i.e.
9
7
3
1
If we do take the "every-other-scale-tone-as-primary-string" idea to start, it's easy to see that the
8
6
5
3
1
model is a fine start. But as many different non-pedal tunings have altered "who's-on-top" as far the scale tone, it's not been applied to the chromatic model, as far as I know. THERE IS NO LAW SAYING IT HAS TO BE the Reece C6th -
9
7
5
3
1
and/or pedal E9th scale tone order:
9
7
3
1
Right away, I can see the utility of a
4
2
5
3
1
topping. Or even
9
7
1
6
5
3
1
I know some of the possibilities are enharmonic, sure. But if there's ANY E9th pedal player looking at their C6th neck and thinking "nah" but at the same time having some interest in doing SOMETHING different than putting the last little refinement on a style that hasn't fundamentally changed in 30 years; yikes. Quartal harmony? I know for my own self, trying to get something extra but added to something that already lets me play what I already know, for sure my first one just got on there:
9 - F# - 13
6 - C# - 17
8 - E - 15
5 - B - 19
3 - G# - 24
1 - E - 30
6 - C# - 26
5 - B - 40
3 - G# - 46
1 - E - 58
When I say "just" I got it on there at about 11:00, it's now... 11:00. Frick. I got work to do, and I just wasted playing 12 hours. The Sun's up! Wah! Right? I (SURELY) may have got a few numbers off in haste here, but wholly holy cow... We will apparently ALWAYS be stuck with tubby and detuning 0.072" strings and weak, thin 0.011" strings - but even without PEDALS there's always retunings allowed! My 9th top string above, the F# is "wrong", it ought to be a D# M7th - but this is for rock 'n roll, and it WORKS that's for damn sure so far. |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 9:00 am
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I do have to confess that I don't feel any limitations with my tuning(s) for rock'n'roll(ish) kind of music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Wx-oN1BSQ
My break is thankfully low in volume, there is unfortunately an inordinate amount of noodling going on, I was called on that a bit off-guard.
https://soundcloud.com/addtothenoise/tulsa-time
I'm always the 2nd after the guitar. That's PSG (as opposed to non-pedal like above). A lot of rhythm guitar also PSG.
Hope you don't mind me tooting my horn here.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Stephen Abruzzo
From:
Philly, PA
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 9:51 am
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Very interesting ideas. As to avoiding the 6th....check out Forumite Steve Cunningham vids on YouTube. In some of his Forum posts, he discusses how he avoids the 6th when he needs to. It can be done.
That said, by lesser players like myself, I tend to keep such things as out of the way as possible or blend the 6th to where it can function as a m7th. |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 10:49 am
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That maligned 6th from e.g.: D-F#-A-B-D
turns into: F-A-C-D-F three frets up.
Rather useful for playing around with major and minor pentatonic ideas on the root of a blues in D.
Actually, that top F is also a prime candidate for behind the bar bends up to F# or thereabouts.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 11:34 am
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I'm playing an 8 with A6 and putting the 9th on top. However, nothing wrong with 6th on top. If I was to put a 6th on top of a 6 string with E tuning:
C#
E
B
G#
F#
E
or------
C#
E
B
G#
E
D
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2014 7:39 pm
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| David, this may be a dumb question but are you wanting the 6th for 3 note minors? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 24 Sep 2014 5:06 am
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| Stephen Abruzzo wrote: |
Very interesting ideas. As to avoiding the 6th....check out Forumite Steve Cunningham vids on YouTube. In some of his Forum posts, he discusses how he avoids the 6th when he needs to. It can be done.
That said, by lesser players like myself, I tend to keep such things as out of the way as possible or blend the 6th to where it can function as a m7th. |
You avoid the 6th simply by moving to other positions. Too many players get hung up in that position, which is what you have to overcome when coming from a slide guitar background. Speaking from experience on that.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 24 Sep 2014 5:22 am
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| Brian McGaughey wrote: |
| David, this may be a dumb question but are you wanting the 6th for 3 note minors? |
If one has the ability of seeing it as the most logical place to put a major 2nd interval in the tuning, rather than just as the 6th of the scale, it opens up so many other ways of thinking.
While it may be the "6th bomb" in the root position, 3 frets up it's the b7th, 7 frets up it's the maj. 3rd, 9 frets up the #11, etc. The best part of it is, there is a scale tone a maj. 2nd below or above it right on an adjacent string.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2014 7:34 pm
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Hey Mike,
So in thinking about your 6th scale degree, indeed there is a major 2nd adjacent below but it's a minor 3rd adjacent above assuming a low to high 1-3-5-6-8 tuning. Also up a fret on the 6 gets your flat 7, right? 
I am not making any judgements about a 6th tuning, I figure it's been around forever for good reason and I believe you've tapped into those reasons.
I did want to say that working around any single string should not be an impossible task. I've learned to stay off given strings on my dobro, usually the 3rds. I wanted David to know that if he's not using the 6th for any reason other than to get a 3 note root, minor 3rd, 5th minor chord, there are workarounds without striking all 3 notes at once. I know this well in working with the dobro's low to high tuning of GBDGBD.
Keep in mind that I do not play lap steel when considering my post. I'm a dobro and pedal steel guy. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 24 Sep 2014 11:09 pm
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There's all kinds of neat things to do with a 6th, I've been playing pedal C6th for 13 years and now 8 and 10 string non-pedal C, A, E 6th variants for three or so; and I can can get around quite well with thumb & 2 or 3 fingerpicks.
And again, if someone could post a flat-oriented steel player using anything they want to, but with a 6th interval in the MIDDLE, playing with the power and authority and rhythmic definition of Duane Allman on "Statesboro Blues", "One Way Out", the slide solo coming out of the bass solo on "Mountain Jam" (there's better on sugarmegs.org but nevermind), or the same flatlander playing with the power and authority of Sonny Landreth on any of a dozen things, Derek Trucks, Johnny Winter, the same, Ry Cooder on a half, Kevin Breit - POWER. Even part timers like Jeff Beck, Mick Taylor, Warren Haynes manage to rock harder rhythmically. POST 'EM.... And it is because of the 6th in the way, it screws up the COUNTING as well as trying to mute something in the middle of trying to decidedly NOT-mute others. "Second Winter", that three-sided thing Johnny put out in 1969? Lordy. Mr. Cunningham is maybe the best at avoidance, Mr VunCannon's good, Mr. Barnhard, Mr. King, but you're always avoiding it - just move it, it WORKS. Really. I'll post some, when I can quit playing long enough. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Sep 2014 5:51 am
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| Brian McGaughey wrote: |
Hey Mike,
So in thinking about your 6th scale degree, indeed there is a major 2nd adjacent below but it's a minor 3rd adjacent above assuming a low to high 1-3-5-6-8 tuning. Also up a fret on the 6 gets your flat 7, right?
I am not making any judgements about a 6th tuning, I figure it's been around forever for good reason and I believe you've tapped into those reasons.
I did want to say that working around any single string should not be an impossible task. I've learned to stay off given strings on my dobro, usually the 3rds. I wanted David to know that if he's not using the 6th for any reason other than to get a 3 note root, minor 3rd, 5th minor chord, there are workarounds without striking all 3 notes at once. I know this well in working with the dobro's low to high tuning of GBDGBD.
Keep in mind that I do not play lap steel when considering my post. I'm a dobro and pedal steel guy. |
These are the reasons C6 (and any tuning with a whole step interval between strings) gets really interesting. I have spent a lot of time documenting possibilities and seeing how to get the most benefit from it in playing and improvising lines. Besides the ability to play chromatically, you also have the ability to articulate your picking so that your phrases have actual accents, just like a vocalist.
But the most important thing is to get to know your scales in every position so that you could begin playing your scales, not only up and down the strings, but also across. If you want to be an improviser, that's what it takes.
David, I don't try to avoid the 6th--that's not approach. I try to make the most of it. I still think one can play in the Elmore James, Duane Allman, Ry Cooder styles if one puts in the heavy lifting. But it will never get it exactly. But that's fine, because it's already been done, time for some new licks.
I posted a video of me playing blues in C6 once in response to the same question, but you either weren't impressed or didn't see it. Either way, I'm not reposting. 
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:14 am
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The "6th vs. 7th" questions can set "real" jazzers to fisticuffs, or at least morosely guzzling single-malts, for the older guys. Real Music is always getting "ruined" by one thing or another. And you mod quartal guys, forget it!  Fortunately, "real jazz" will never be be my worst problem, I KNOW It's Only Rock 'n' Roll, But...
Rhythmic drive is a tricky thing, you have to have an extraordinary right hand to be able to play your way through the necessary variants to move around even six-strings with versatility, Tommy Emmanuel & Chet Atkins come to mind. And I don't - I have to cheat, and every way possible. It's one thing to play the notes, but to be able to WHOMP 'em so people drop their beer and go "WHA...?" is another. I like music that's scary that way. I can LIST the Three Greatest Notes Ever Played, etc...
That WAYNE KRANTZ guy has just put out a RB/Rocky kind of album with some wicked righthand flatpick work (probably some fingers too). Oz Noy is another one of those. I don't know how they do it - practice, or talent or some crap, probably. Another few of my-never-to-be-worst problems.
_________________
Just because they're not all out to get you doesn't mean you don't believe they're all out to get you.
Last edited by David Mason on 26 Sep 2014 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:24 am
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David, what I meant to tell you is to tune the 1st string E down to D. It is the perfect way to make C6 useable in a rock and blues way. You don't lose the integrity of the heart of C6. When I used E based tunings, I always loved having the 9th on top.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 5:51 am
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As Mike said. I've been playing U-12 E9/B6 pedals for decades and just now getting into lap. After experimenting with tunings and watching posts on the subject, I've settled on A6th with 9th on top on my lap 8 string and love it. I have a wrist lever that drops the middle E to Eb and changes the tuning to B9th.
My next interest is purchasing a Fender double 8 and using my current tuning A6th: low to high F# A C# E F# A C# B ( 9th on top). The other neck probably E13th: E D E F# G# B E C# (6th on top). Subject to final structure with the E13th.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 10:40 am
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| Quote: |
| And you mod quartal guys, forget it! |
That's the biggest gripe I have with my tuning. Linear quartal stuff is just really, really hard to play.
I'm fooling around with faking it out of pentatonic ideas, but it's not quite the same sound.
And quartal chords are just not there. I don't think I will find my inner Jim Hall on the lap steel.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 11:00 am
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_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.
Last edited by Niels Andrews on 27 Sep 2014 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2014 3:30 pm
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Niels -
why did you lose Reece's top 3 strings? They are awesome!
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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