C6 setup P4, RKR ?

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

C6 setup ?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'd suggest dropping 8 to G along with the 4th string to Ab
I don't know why you have that RKR, I'd think about putting P5 there, as it so often gets used with P7.
Since raising both Cs to C# while hitting P5 gives you an A6 with a high E, it gives string 1-9 of the high-G C6 at the third fret, but on strings 2-10.
The traditional P4 does have cool sweet harmony uses if you like old-western swing or mainstream jazz.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I used to use his RKR on my early guitars. With the 6th pedal, it gives a 6th tone, granted not necessary. But if you also have an A to Bb on string 4, you get the equivalent of the E9 A & B pedals, albeit in F/Bb. I used to do a TV show, where I would play Bud's Bounce for the intro and ending songs, but do it using the pedal/lever changes I mentioned. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you weren't watching me play it on the C6 neck. If I was going to do an S-10 C6 guitar. I would have both an A to Bb and a C to D lever so I could get some E9 sounds and licks.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jeff Harbour · From: Western Ohio, USA

Mr. Erlandsen, I like your thinking! The thought first occured to me to put that change on Pedal 4 about a year ago, so I did. I now can't live without it. I am referring to your copedant diagram, which is "C-C#" (I assume this is what you meant when you said "B-C#"?).

The only thing I could say against it would be that the C-C# change may need to be used with Pedal 6 for certain altered dominant chords, mainly the 6th string E-Eb pull. For that reason I moved that pull to a lever (although I admit that splitting up Pedal 6 may not be a popular idea to most players). But, depending on your chordal preferences this may not be critical to you anyway.

There is one neat thing about this Pedal 4 / Pedal 5 setup that I didn't even realize until I after started playing around with it... If you rock between the two, you have a great "one-seventh" to "four-ninth" progression at the same fret.

Jeff H.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

I fixed a couple typos in the orginal post. The B-C# should say C-C#. Original P4 was both A's to B.

It should be possible get a halfstop on the RKR so I can go C-C#-D on string 3

All 3 notes C. C# or D will work nicely with the F7 on strings 9 6 4 3 w P6 (which to my ears really wants access to the D note while keeping the F Eb A)
I could get the D note on the 1st string but it wont feel the same.

There is two voicings that really work well with that low B on RKR.

P6 + RKR give F Eb A D on 9 6 4 3 (F13)
and at same time B Eb A D on 10 6 4 3 (B7#9)

P6 + RKR + LKL give F A Eb Ab on 9 8 6 4 (F7#9)
and at same time B A Eb Ab on 10 8 6 4 (B13)

Maybe I could have the 10th string C-B on the LKL that lowers 4 A-Ab.

The original P4 was cool so maybe halfstop on RKR is better solution. Ill have to try both. My C6 is on a JCH which is pretty easy to move pull rods so that isnt gonna ruin my sleep.

B.Erlandsen

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

This is my current c6.

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------ F#
E ------------ F ------- Eb -------------- Eb
C ----------------- B --------------------------- B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- G#
G ------ F#
E - D -------- Eb ------ F
C ----------------- B ------- C#
A ---------------------------------------- Ab
F ------ F# ----------------- E
C ------ D ------------------ A

I'm thinking about changing some things but I don't know what necessarily. I may end up leaving it as is, but I figured since there was already a topic about c6 and p4 I might as well get in on the convo.

Lane, you said P7 and P5 are often used together. Since I don't have a standard p4 or p7, would it be logical to put a normal p7 in my p4 position so I could use it with p5 easier? I do like the E>D that is on p4, but I could put it on a different spot.

I don't use my vertical lever that much so it's up in the air for changes, possible candidate for the E's>D, since string two is halfway there. Add the A>G# to string 8 (as was original on the guitar, and removed before I bought it). The RKL seems redundant for me and I don't know what I want it to be really, or if I left it, what I would switch my p7 to.

So far these would be the changes I would make to mine

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------ F#
E ------------ F ------- Eb -------------- D
C --D------------- B --------------------------- B ---- C#
A --B----------------------------- G#
G ------ F#
E ------------ Eb ------ F --------------- D
C ----------------- B ------- C#
A --------------------------------- G#
F ------ F# ----------------- E
C ------ D ------------------ A

Does that look ok? Any ideas for my RKL or P7? I also have a lever I can add back on to be a LKL

(Sorry to hijack your thread, Bengt!)

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

P5 and P7 are often used together, but less often than 6 and 7.
Since you say you don't use the LKV, I'd put P7 there, so you can hit 6/7 and 5/7 without double-footing.
I'd also drop 8 a whole on the same lever that drops 4 a half.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I have the equivilent of your E to D on RKR - I couldn't live without it
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Yes

I use it most often with P5, and also with my LKL, which is the equivilent of you lowering your C to B
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

I also don't use the LKR very much either so that could be an option for a p7 setup.

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

Also notice my p5 lowers my string 1 instead of raising as most people with a high g do. Should I change that or leave it and for what reasons?
Thanks again!

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------ F#
E ------------ F ------- Eb -------------- D
C ----------------- B --------------D------------ B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- B
G ------ F#
E ------------ Eb ------ F --------------- D
C ----------------- B ------- C#
A ---------------------------------
F ------ F# ----------------- E
C ------ D ------------------ A

Or

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------ F#
E ------------ F ------- Eb --------D-------
C ----------------- B ----------------------D---- B ---- C#
A ------------------------------------------B
G ------ F#
E ------------ Eb ------ F --------D-----
C ----------------- B ------- C#
A ---------------------------------
F ------ F# ----------------- E
C ------ D ------------------ A

With the E>D on either LKV or LKR and the C>B on p7, I get a reversed e9 A&B taking it from a C major to a G major. I'm not sure whether the LKR or LKV would be easier to do rolls with? Would it make more sense to have it on the LKR so that when I come off of p7 it's less likely to affect the E>D change? Also it is minutely closer of a move to p7 than LKV and LKV is more directly above p5&6.

I realize I don't have a p4 on there. It is up for opinions. I also realize that I removed the lever that was my A halftone lower. I do have this other LKL I could use for that or leave the A lowers on LKR and put the "normal" p7 or E>D on the LKL and LKV

Sorry if I'm going in circles Smile

just trying to get all possibilities out of the way and decide what I want to do before buying all the hardware and then wanting to change something again. (I need more steel guitars so I can tinker and have one assembled to play on!)

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Mark, I've used the whole tone drop for:
An inverse A pedal, so I have Phil Baugh's opening fill on "He Stopped Loving Her Today";
A handy low 5 tone when I want Dobro-style stuff;
A b7 against the P8 chord;
A low 9th against the P6 F chord.
When I was ordering my Zum, I talked extensively with sensei Mike Auldridge (I used to call him from time to time to talk steel: I miss him), who suggested that change. When I questioned its asymmetric nature, he chuckled and said "trust me."
I've never yet missed not dropping 4 a whole, and only rarely used the half lever on 8.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

My head has been going nonstop on this today, ha!

I like those uses, Lane! Thanks sounds good to me! Do you have a double stop on yours?

I thought of these, too

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------ F#
E ------------ F ------- D --------------
C ----------------- B ---------------------D------ B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- G# ---B
G ------ F#
E ------------ Eb ------ D ---------------
C ----------------- B ------- C#
A --------------------------------- G
F ------ F# ----------------- E
C ------ D ------------------ A

Or put p9 in p4's place since I like to use it and p5 alternating, either way this setup has an open pedal, but doesn't have the inverse p6, which could go somewhere in there.

Or

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------------ F#
E -------D--------- F -- Eb --------------
C --B--------------------------------------D---- B ---- C#
A ---------------------------------- G#---B
G ------------ F#
E -------D--------- Eb - F ---------------
C --B------------------------- C#
A ----------------------------------- G
F ------------ F# ------------- E
C ------------ D -------------- A

I believe it is coming together nicely so far. The E>D and C>B are a direct inverse of A and B pedals on e9, respectively, and next to each other seems like the obvious answer.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

That's really close to the perfectest-ever! Though, with a 5+5... adding a LKV.

LKL raises the A's 1/2 step, LKV lowers them a 1/2 step - the reason here is that that's a huge one in combination with P5+P6. RKR drops the 5th string G to F, RKL lowers the string 3 C, P4 raises those C's. LKR drops the 2nd string E to D. It's all about the combinations. Neat things happen when you slam your knees together, slam them apart, play both knees to the left, both knees to the right... You have five distinct sets of major 6th chords.

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

Came up with this one while lying in bed last night while attempting to quit thinking and go to sleep.

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------------G#------ F#
E --D-------------------------F ------
C -------B-------- C#---------------------D---- B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- G# ----B
G ------------G#------ F#
E --D------------------------ Eb -----------
C -------B-------- C#
A --------------------------------- G
F ----------------- E--- F# -----------------
C ----------------- A--- D ------------------

Or reverse the order of pedals so that p9 is at p4, p8 at p5, etc. Not sure which would be easier to use.

With this you get a nice Maj7 with 6&7, an E major with 5&6, a "normal p7" as the LKV so it's useable with p8&9, Lane's 4&8 drop with the above listed uses. Inverse e9 AB pedals on p4&p5

At this point are RKR and RKL redundancies of p5 and p7?

Lane, I also keep trying to think of some way to put a "normal. P5" on a lever and arrange the pedals best to suit but I keep getting turned around in the "this goes with that and that there from here parts" haha

Mark Nix · From: Arkansas, USA

Getting there this one requires the p5 to p9 double foot, which I'm not necessarily against.
--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKL - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------F#--------------G#------
E --F---------D-----------------
C ------------------B-------- C#-----------------D---- B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- A#--- G#----B
G ------F#--------------G#------
E --Eb------- D-----------------------
C ------------------B--------C#
A --------------------------------- A#--- G
F -------F#----------------- E------
C -------D------------------ A----

This one seems pretty legit here. I think it may be near the final draft!

--- P4 - P5 - P6 - P7 - P8 - P9 - LKL - LKR - LKV - RKL - RKR
G ------F#--------G#------
E --F------------------------- D
C ------------C#------- B----------------------- D---- B ---- C#
A --------------------------------- A#--- G#----B
G ------F#--------G#------
E --Eb----------------------- D
C ------------C#------- B--
A --------------------------------- A#--- G
F -------F#-- E------------
C ------ D----A-----------

Well, what do you guys think? Smile

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

You guys who lower string 3, C to a B on your rkl.

On my E9 side I lower my E's to Eb and on my rkr I lower string 2 a half/whole and lower string 9 a whole step.

My question is,
Would it be in my favor to lower string 3 to a B on rkr or rkl as far as ease of lever tension. I have had it on rkr but find that combined setup on my msa might be a tad stiff but just wondering what you guys have.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I have no problem on my Zum. RKL has 2 pulls on each neck (E9th raises 1 to G and lowers 6 to F#, and the C6th neck lowers 4 to Ab and Cool

and RKR has 3 pulls (2 to C# and 9 to C # on E9th and 3 to B on C6th).
Never had an issue.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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