What is the consensus today?

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Is it the consensus opinion that:

For better or worse the "success" of pedal steel guitar is tied directly to it's use in country music?

I'm not hung up on the term "Success" or "country music", so have at it!

h

-edit- Yes = True/Agree
No = False/Don't Agree
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John Scanlon · From: Jackson, Mississippi, USA

I'd say that's true to some degree, but not totally dependent on - just tied to it.
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Barry Blackwood · Posted 26 Aug 2014 7:31 pm

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

How can we choose between "better" and "worse" if the choices are Yes and No?
I vote "worse".

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Interesting observation, and I think you may be very correct on that point. I love steel in country music, but the instrument needs to break out of being typecast for it to become influential.

Roy Carroll · From: North of a Round Rock

For better or worse, Steel Guitar both Pedal and Non-pedal will forever be tied to country music as it is seen by the general pubic (those who know what it is) as a country instrument, much like a banjo. Sorry boys. In reality, Pedal Steel guitar has been used by many known rock bands, as has lap steel. There was a time when Pedal Steel was gaining a lot of traction in those fields. It is up to us to further the understanding of the instrument and find openings within other genres to promote it. I am a classic player and enjoy that, however, I have played on many sessions that I would describe as soft rock, not my preference to play but as a musician, I look at it as a way to further my own knowledge of other music. Remember this: If you are not learning, you are backing up. You are not standing still, you are losing ground to all the other aggressive musicians out there.
My vote is we are better for having started in Country music but worse because of the stigma attached. I just can't make up my mind.
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Patrick Strain · From: Binghamton/Gilbertsville, NY

I have to say no, but it's because I don't consider most music I hear on modern country radio to be country.
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Dustin Rhodes · From: Owasso OK

I think its the most prominent place its being used but Nashville top-40 isn't all there is to country music in 2014. Kelsey Waldon just put out a great album with a lot of good steel work. Very country. Most texas country stuff still uses PSG players.

http://youtu.be/b-m8RjtWDPk

Daniel Policarpo · Posted 27 Aug 2014 12:55 pm

Right. When I think of country, I think of people like Amber Digby, Justin Trevino, Miss Leslie, Marty Stuart, Connie Smith, Leona Williams, Gill/Franklin, Merle, lots of others, still flying a hard country sound with predominant use of steel guitar. If I have the urge to shoot myself in the foot, then I'll turn on the radio.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I have about thirty-five "steel guitar" CDs - meaning ones in which the music and marketing is tied specifically to steel guitar, not like Eivind Aarset's Sonix Codex band where he merely feels that pedal steel is an instrument he needs in his band to best execute his compositions, or the contributions of David Phillips, Bruce Kaphan, or Greg Liezs to other people's albums in which the other people are the primary writers. About ten of them are country, ONE is by Robert Randolph - I've met very few people who play pedal steel because they want to BE Robert Randolph, very unlike the Emmons Cult - and the rest are varied from jazz to rock to classical.

I feel that tying pedal steel guitar to traditional country has greatly inhibited it's use in other styles of music, and hence harmed it's overall popularity - even many musicians who ought to know better have such a strong association of it with Nudie suits, singing through your nose and cheating on your dog (etc) it's the last thing they want on their albums! Even if they know what it can do, they don't want their own music to be typecast as hillbilly throwback retread songs; this is greatly compounded by the icky little construct that if people don't know what genre to market you in, they just won't. Market you, that is.

There was actually even one tiny little instant (between "Roly-Poly" and "Ba-Donk-a-Donk") where people who wrote thoughtful, intelligent songs were sometimes even classified as "country!" That went over well.... you can still find them, but it's more word-of-mouth than anything else, because even all the "liberating" internet music-propagation schemes still depend, at heart, on classifications. I'm quite sure that for every one of us cult members who might be more inclined to listen to an unknown because it has steel guitar, there are more who would make the snap judgement NOT to listen to it - because it has steel guitar.

However, there are two points which give me hope. One, the instrument itself is so powerful musically it can surely overcome such trivialities as being typecast (no matter how much steel players themselves attempt to keep it typecast!); and, old people always die off, which keeps a certain roiling undertow working that simply can't be escaped.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I voted "No", and I'll tell you why.

1. A logical argument. If steel is tied to country music (P), it will die (or become completely marginalized) for sure (Q) because the country music that it is tied to is definitely becoming quite marginalized. I'm confident steel will not die (or even become marginalized any more than it's ever been), and in fact there is ample evidence that interest in the instrument is growing (~Q). Therefor, it is a valid conclusion that it is not tied to country music (~P). The argument is:

(P => Q) ^ (~Q) => ~P

and this is a valid logical argument (if you don't believe me, try it yourself - e.g., http://www.brian-borowski.com/software/truth/.) The above logical statement is a tautology, and hence if you buy the premises, the conclusion (~P) necessarily follows.

2. OK, you're not swayed by logic. What else is new.

My own personal experience. I deal with two kinds of people who want steel. The first, of course, is traditional country folks. They have always loved steel, love it now, and will love it until the day they die. They're mostly old, strictly traditional, and I'm sure many people here understand what I'm talking about. God Bless them, I love it too.

But there's a whole 'nother class of people I deal with who love steel just as much. They're a lot younger, often more than a little rag-tag, maybe not worried about so much polish. But they truly love steel - when I show up with a steel, they're all over it. These folks are hardcore to the bone, they love their roots music of lots of different stripes, and the jerky-boy purveyors of so-called 'popular' (popular to WHOM is my question) music will not sway them one iota. It is not, and may never be, a 'dominant' popular music form again. But this audience will, IMO, become the center for music that features steel guitar - it is an underground. And the bastards can't kill the underground - they've tried a thousand times, and it can't be done. The dissenters will keep on crawling out of rocks.

3. You can say all this in a different way. Sure, there's a segment of the steel-guitar-loving population who is forever tied to died-in-the-wool hardcore traditional country music. It's gotta be {name-your-favorite-trad-country-artist-with-trad-country-steel-player}. But that market, even in its heyday, was a TINY fraction of the popular music market. People in the country music industry were happy with sales in the 5 and low 6 figures, while the BIG-TIME pop music world were selling millions. Then along comes Garth Brooks (and btw Barbara Mandrell and many others before, but Garth was the complete yuppie-country package) and all these people can just SMELL the money. The whole thing goes berserk, and now the country thing is like, "Who the hell is Roy Acuff?". And all styles have moved in that direction. Nobody even thinks music is worth paying for anymore.

But under all that, there are people who still care about music. We're not (IMO) gonna move this kind of thing to the 'big-time'. It's always gonna be kind of on the fringe. But I think it can be as big, or even quite a bit bigger, than the original market for traditional country music.

I know many of you want to be part of the "BIG TIME". Myself, I'm happy to just play stuff that I like and have some people who give a damn, and I think that will continue to be a working proposition for the forseeable future. But in urban areas (which are gobbling up more and more of the population like a black hole gobbles up debris around it), I think that will be a tough proposition if the only thing you care about is old-school country music. But the good news is that steel guitar works for any music.

My take.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Dave,

That made my day! Very Happy

h

Barry Blackwood · Posted 27 Aug 2014 3:48 pm

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

maybe somewhat up til now, but hopefully not into the future.

i offer this short answer to counteract the longwinded ones.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Steel guitar is unlimited. It is used in many different styles of music. Limitations, if any, are actually placed on PSG's by those who won't or don't want to see changes. A simple look around the internet for steel guitar music will bring forth a wide reference to choose from to listen/watch. Change has come and will continue to come at periods that are directly related to steel folks like the Jackson's and there new products, not to mention the precise pedal steels there building. We follow others whether we think about it or not. I used The Jackson builders as an example. They followed footsteps and have stepped forward with supporters like Zane King, Robert Randolph and even some of the Sacred Steelers are playing Jacksons. Franklin, Johnson, White and several other steelers are right on the front lines and we simply follow. PSG limited to country? No way.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I voted YES but I'm not certain if it implies better or worse ! Sad

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Mark Eaton · Posted 28 Aug 2014 10:32 am

I don't have a real strong opinion regarding the question, but I kind of lean toward the "No."

That's because if I'm out somewhere and a good steel player is on stage and plays some classic, tugging at the heart strings, crying steel John Hughey licks I'll say to the person next to me, "man that's great - you just don't hear this kind of steel much anymore." I'm a life-long San Francisco Giants fan, so it might be like reminiscing about great plays in centerfield by Willie Mays. "There have been a lot of fine center fielders since, but there was only one Willie Mays."

I have quoted several times on the forum from an article written about Lloyd Green by singer/songwriter Robbie Fulks from about eight years ago that appeared in The Journal of Country Music. In 2006 we were well into the "Bro Country" era, but I hadn't come across the term at that point. I had to dig awhile to find this one, but it seems germane to the discussion. Here is a quote from Lloyd as written by Fulks:

Bo Legg · Posted 28 Aug 2014 11:35 am

Itâ€™s a good thing that steel guitar is closely associated with country music.
If it were not for country music you would more than likely only hear steel guitar in Hawaiian music.
Itâ€™s mostly steel players that buy Steel guitar music and truthfully the rest of the world could care less if a steel guitar played on any music genre CD.
So until we get to where we are not just chasing our own tail we are not going to see any gains.

Dan Hatfield · From: Columbia, Mo USA

Yes, the pedal steel is tied to country music because that is where it was spawned and developed and nurtured and accepted. I have no problem with that; after all, if it wasn't for the tie between steel and country, I wouldn't have any playing jobs because country is all I can play. The pedal steel is a BRAND NEW invention in the big scheme of things. We have had jet planes longer than pedal steels. We can't expect a brand new invention to be accepted on a large scale overnight. On the other hand, I, like many of you, would love to see the instrument expand and be accepted in other types of music. However, that can only happen when you have brilliant players take the instrument in those directions. I think Robert Randolph is a good template for how this can happen. Robert happens to be a gospel/R&B/R&R musician who decided he wanted to take the instrument into his musical world and he did it with gusto. He puts himself and his guitar right up front in the face of the audience and plays the fire out of it with total self confidence and his body language basically says to them "take this and love it!!" And of course they do.
If the instrument is to be accepted in the jazz world, for example, you have to have a player of the caliber of a Paul Franklin or a Doug Jourigan come up with a top of the line jazz combo and start showing up at jazz festivals, on TV shows, etc, etc. and the steeler has to be in the forefront so that his virtuosity cannot be denied. Just some random thoughts; YMMV.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Daniel Policarpo · Posted 30 Aug 2014 5:57 pm

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

No--
My good friend Dr Dave nailed it as usual.. As he and I both play in "college towns" and their environs, we have both seen and experienced this "pedal steel guitar dichotomy"... Right now, I am playing with a bunch of "old guys" like myself, playing mostly traditional country from the 50's until maybe 1990.. Lots of country standards, ray price shuffles, etc,, An E9 players dream.. I get a LOT of face time,,, Too bad my face is wrinkled...

However, for much of the past 20 years my sessions and much of my gigging has been with young singer/songwriter types.. They LOVE the steel, and like and respect traditional forms... They know and understand Dylan and Buck Owens, The Beatles,Byrds and Chet Atkins.. Their music is lets see.. Neo/folk/alt/avant garde/blugrass/ragtime/country/new age/artsy fartsy/whatever/rock and roll classical reggae... Hard to determine.. Much of it is GOOD, and these are talented young musicians usually.. Its NOT country really, but has elements, and its not traditional, but its inspired thereby... I am very happy when I get these calls, but they are getting much more scarce as I have hit 60 and now really LOOK my age... I am where I belong now I suppose, with theold guys, but the young rag tag but talented, "neos" still flock around my steel when they get the chance... They DO "get it"...

Here's a couple of sessions I played for a couple of very talented NON COUNTRY "neo folk" artists that knew how to put decidedly mediocre pedal steel licks to a very good use, and fit in perfectly with what they were all about musically.. These are not country songs, but the artists they wrote and sang them APPRECIATED country steel and made it fit.. these sessions were done locally in Ithaca, but these two fine artists have gained some traction, and their CD's have been very critically acclaimed.. I could not be prouder that they asked me to be a very small part... Steel is NOT dead in the hearts of fine musicians with great ears, but the general public, as in many things today, is clueless. bob

http://artistsforliteracy.org/index.php/cds/chapter-2/112-goin-back-to-moline.html

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Wally Moyers · From: Lubbock, Texas

For better or worse the "success" of pedal steel guitar is tied directly to it's use in "country music"?

I vote noâ€¦ At least I hope its "success" it not totally tied to only "country music".. I love real country music but love many other musical styles also.. It's the players that limit the instrument not the instrument itselfâ€¦ Russ Pahl, Buck Reed, Buddy Emmons, Paul Franklin, Mike Smith and many others have proven that its not just a country instrument.. I was listening to Buddy's Jazz record today. It was cut in 1962â€¦ How many players these days do what he did and go cut a record using musicians that are masters at jazz, blues, rock, R&B or whatever? Buddy showed that he had a lot of guts to step out of the country mode into the jazz world.. We need more of that.. I don't think he did it to prove anything but did it because he loved the music and challenged himself to do it.. By the way, you can buy it on iTunes..

With the availability of home computer recording these days, we should be hearing original steel music more than ever.. There are some amazing writing tools available allowing musicians to do great demos.. For laying down some cool drum grooves try Addictive Drums.. http://www.xlnaudio.com/addictivedrums/ It works with most DAW's, you can download a free demo and try it before you buy itâ€¦ Writing helps you discover the music you have within yourself, you may be surprised what you can doâ€¦ There comes a time when you've copied everyone else and it's time to see who you are musically speakingâ€¦

Tom Keller · From: Greeneville, TN, USA

This poll question is sort of like asking if the Gibson Mastertone banjo for better or worse is identified with Bluegrass music. A self answering kind of question.

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