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Topic: So I wanna learn the pedal steel........ |
Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 4:47 am |
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A couple more questions and a progress report.
1. So far my biggest challenge is the right hand. Picking with these claws is really different than anything I've ever tried before. It is coming along though. I guess it will gradually become second nature.
2. Tuning. I guess I need to source a Boss tuner with a needle? Are these things still available? Why does a steel need to be tuned this way? So weird.
3. Do you guys have suggestions on maybe the first tune I should try to learn? There seem to be a million options out there and it can be a little bewildering. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 6:05 am
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Steels sound better with a little more "sweetness" than tuned straight up (there are OODLES of discussions on theories of how to tune and why, and there are almost as many varieties of steel-specific tuning offsets).
Nearly any chromatic tuner with a needle, or simulated needle, will work. If you're one of the many with a smartphone, there are many free tuner apps, and many of us like the $3.00 Cleartune (and if you want to tune silently, Peterson makes an adapter to let you plug your guitar into a phone).
How about this from Mickey Adams for something early?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4uck5j4d0M
Or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cANjKHM2Jo
I really like the idea of also starting with one of the books. Like the Winnie Winston/Bill Keith one.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 7:48 am
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| Peter Harrell wrote: |
| the first tune I should try to learn? |
Mary Had A Little Lamb on open strings in E, D, A, B, C#. Practice until you can always pick the right string with confidence.
And as you pick each note, learn to mute (block) the previous note with pick, and then with palm. This will take more than a week to learn but is vital. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 8:04 am Re: So I wanna learn the pedal steel........
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| Peter Harrell wrote: |
I have a suspicion that learning pedal steel may help my understanding of chords and theory and therefore improve my sax playing.
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The last five years I've worked in a Sinatra-type swing band and can assure you that, having worked with some of the best horn and reed men in Austin, my steel playing has definitely improved.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 11 Aug 2014 9:34 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Peter Harrell wrote: |
| the first tune I should try to learn? |
Mary Had A Little Lamb on open strings in E, D, A, B, C#. Practice until you can always pick the right string with confidence.
And as you pick each note, learn to mute (block) the previous note with pick, and then with palm. This will take more than a week to learn but is vital. |
Great advice. To really lock in what's going on, sight read it off sheet music (not that anyone NEEDS to...it's just that really understanding scale degrees and interval relationships is more intuitive on scores than tab) and play it with the root note on as many different strings as you can ( which is maybe what Earnest is implying, but you'd need pedals and levers to do this, not just changing fret position) |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 9:47 am
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| Ok, next dumb question. Does the "Day" setup extend to the knee levers? I'm trying to learn Elvin Bishop's "Fooled around and fell in love". In this tutorial....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOPZzDLTMA....the guy uses his left lever to move a note. This does not work on my guitar. I have to use my right lever. Does this make sense?? |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 9:48 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Steels sound better with a little more "sweetness" than tuned straight up (there are OODLES of discussions on theories of how to tune and why, and there are almost as many varieties of steel-specific tuning offsets).
Nearly any chromatic tuner with a needle, or simulated needle, will work. If you're one of the many with a smartphone, there are many free tuner apps, and many of us like the $3.00 Cleartune (and if you want to tune silently, Peterson makes an adapter to let you plug your guitar into a phone).
How about this from Mickey Adams for something early?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4uck5j4d0M
Or this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cANjKHM2Jo
I really like the idea of also starting with one of the books. Like the Winnie Winston/Bill Keith one. |
I got that tuner and it works great. My guitar was way out of wack. I think I still need to work on the pedal tuning but its way better now. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 9:59 am
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| Peter Harrell wrote: |
| Ok, next dumb question. Does the "Day" setup extend to the knee levers? I'm trying to learn Elvin Bishop's "Fooled around and fell in love". In this tutorial....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOPZzDLTMA....the guy uses his left lever to move a note. This does not work on my guitar. I have to use my right lever. Does this make sense?? |
Yes. The direction of your ankle movement (tilt) influences your natural knee motion when pivoting between a pedal down, and then b pedal down. Since A is used with the F lever alot, and the B pedal used with the E lever alot, those two levers should be in the same order as your A and B pedal if both levers that change the E strings 4 and 8 are located on the left knee. Some players have both of those levers on the right knee, and some have the E on right and F on left knee.
When I indicated 'nothing is set in stone, this extends to what changes are on what lever. Very clearly the prior owner changed the guitar's setup from factory to suit his fancy, you can too. You will have to learn the art of setting up a push pull though. Based on your background, you could probably figure it out, and note the re-appearing 'sticky' topic in this forum regarding pushpull guitars. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 10:12 am
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| Peter Harrell wrote: |
| Ok, next dumb question. Does the "Day" setup extend to the knee levers? I'm trying to learn Elvin Bishop's "Fooled around and fell in love". In this tutorial....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOPZzDLTMA....the guy uses his left lever to move a note. This does not work on my guitar. I have to use my right lever. Does this make sense?? |
If that handwritten chart you posted represents the setup on the guitar, the guitar is set up "Emmons" (with an added pedal to the left of the A pedal), not "Day".
(Potentially confusingly, it's the pedal that raises the B strings to C# that's called the A pedal, and the one that raises the G#'s to A is the B pedal.)
But your guitar 's knee levers are in places that are different from the most common setups, anyway. The reasons as stated above by Tom why lever positions would be one way or the other for Day or Emmons apply if the E raises and lowers are on the left knee, while your guitar has them both on the right knee. (This is not better or worse, just different!) In the video, Mickey is using the Emmons pedal setup with the E raises and lowers on the left knee, as described by Tom. So just think of their functions; you'll do on your right knee what he does on the left knee. |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 10:19 am
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| Ok. This begs the question that if I learn the guitar this way will I suffer if I play someone else's guitar later, etc? |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 10:37 am
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Different people may have more or less trouble with that, but I think most would only need a few minutes of mental adjustment. Though ingrained muscle memory is hard to completely overcome.
Though it's relatively uncommon, a good case can be made for having the E raises and lowers on the right knee. Though the combinations Tom refers to are the most common, as one gains familiarity and fluency on the instrument there are occasions when the opposite pedal+lever combinations are useful, and having the levers on the right knee avoids having to move your left knee one way and bend the ankle the other way at the same time.
BTW, a terminology tip: Rather than refer to a "right" or "left" lever--which could refer to which knee or to which direction it's pressed--it's customary to use the abbreviations LKL, LKR, RKL, RKR (left knee moving left, and so on). |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 11:05 am
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| Ollin Landers wrote: |
Pete,
I've lusted after this guitar since Jim told me about it but I just don't have the cash. The owner (Jim) of the Emmons for sale in Greensboro is a friend of mine. He is a guitar player that wanted to learn steel years ago and just never did. I've sat in with his band a few times on steel.
I know personally he bought that guitar new from the factory and rarely played it. He has the original bill of receipt, registration card and all the paper work. He went to the Emmons factory a few years ago and had them look up the registration card and match them up.
It's a Day setup and he told me the 4th pedal is original from the factory. I have no idea of the copedant. He did tell me there is a little finish checking but on a guitar of this age that's probably expected.
It's been under his bed for many years. I have his direct phone number I could place a call for anyone that wants to speak with him.
The last time I talked with him I thought he sold it to a guy from Boone NC.
Pete, You can contact me off forum and I can put you in touch or help you in any way I can. I would be more than happy to help you go check out a steel at anytime. |
Evidently, this is from someone who personally knows the seller. But the shot of the paperwork does indicate it is an Emmons setup.
Peter. If you could tell us what pedal raises string 5 & 10 and what pedal raises strings 3 & 4, we can determine for sure what setup you have.
I play a Day setup, and I can sit in on a couple f my friends' Emmons setup guitars. But only if their E raises and E lowers are on the left knee where mine are. I have just jumped on stage, and within the 15 break for the band, was able to acclimate myself to the Emmons setup. I have a friend who has those levers on his right knee, and I cannot play it. It would take me more than a few minutes to adjust.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 12:57 pm
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| Peter Harrell wrote: |
| Ok. This begs the question that if I learn the guitar this way will I suffer if I play someone else's guitar later, etc? |
I worried about that too...nothing to worry about, mostly because everbody's guitar is different. Survey's however have seemed to prove that 80 percent of players use emmons pedal arrangement, and 20 percent day. There is no standard on knee lever location. The determining factor in emmons vs day is which way your ankle bends most ergonomically to get the moving tones from use of A+B or B+C.
After discovering a personal dislike (and therefore disuse) of the c-pedal, there are many others including myself that put the e-f# pull on a knee and dispense entirely with the C pedal.
Pick one or the other without consideration to how other's guitars may be arranged.
The way I approached getting beyond the particulars of my original guitar's copedent was that I bought three different guitars with three different copedents. Haha sounds ridiculous? In fact I bought those guitars for different reasons, and the fact they have different copedents is because there is no standard, and I thot i'd just go with it.
Miraculously, the brain is strong enough to adapt. In fact, by confusing my reflexes in this way, i've had to approach the instrument more intellectually, rather than relying so heavily on muscle memory. |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 4:01 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Ollin Landers wrote: |
Pete,
I've lusted after this guitar since Jim told me about it but I just don't have the cash. The owner (Jim) of the Emmons for sale in Greensboro is a friend of mine. He is a guitar player that wanted to learn steel years ago and just never did. I've sat in with his band a few times on steel.
I know personally he bought that guitar new from the factory and rarely played it. He has the original bill of receipt, registration card and all the paper work. He went to the Emmons factory a few years ago and had them look up the registration card and match them up.
It's a Day setup and he told me the 4th pedal is original from the factory. I have no idea of the copedant. He did tell me there is a little finish checking but on a guitar of this age that's probably expected.
It's been under his bed for many years. I have his direct phone number I could place a call for anyone that wants to speak with him.
The last time I talked with him I thought he sold it to a guy from Boone NC.
Pete, You can contact me off forum and I can put you in touch or help you in any way I can. I would be more than happy to help you go check out a steel at anytime. |
Evidently, this is from someone who personally knows the seller. But the shot of the paperwork does indicate it is an Emmons setup.
Peter. If you could tell us what pedal raises string 5 & 10 and what pedal raises strings 3 & 4, we can determine for sure what setup you have.
I play a Day setup, and I can sit in on a couple f my friends' Emmons setup guitars. But only if their E raises and E lowers are on the left knee where mine are. I have just jumped on stage, and within the 15 break for the band, was able to acclimate myself to the Emmons setup. I have a friend who has those levers on his right knee, and I cannot play it. It would take me more than a few minutes to adjust. |
5 and 10 are raised by my second pedal (from left), 3 raises 3 and 4 raises 4. I don't think 4 is working quite right though. It has a detent in it. Raises 5 in two half steps and attempts to raise 4 on the second half but never quite makes it. |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 4:02 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Ollin Landers wrote: |
Pete,
I've lusted after this guitar since Jim told me about it but I just don't have the cash. The owner (Jim) of the Emmons for sale in Greensboro is a friend of mine. He is a guitar player that wanted to learn steel years ago and just never did. I've sat in with his band a few times on steel.
I know personally he bought that guitar new from the factory and rarely played it. He has the original bill of receipt, registration card and all the paper work. He went to the Emmons factory a few years ago and had them look up the registration card and match them up.
It's a Day setup and he told me the 4th pedal is original from the factory. I have no idea of the copedant. He did tell me there is a little finish checking but on a guitar of this age that's probably expected.
It's been under his bed for many years. I have his direct phone number I could place a call for anyone that wants to speak with him.
The last time I talked with him I thought he sold it to a guy from Boone NC.
Pete, You can contact me off forum and I can put you in touch or help you in any way I can. I would be more than happy to help you go check out a steel at anytime. |
Evidently, this is from someone who personally knows the seller. But the shot of the paperwork does indicate it is an Emmons setup.
Peter. If you could tell us what pedal raises string 5 & 10 and what pedal raises strings 3 & 4, we can determine for sure what setup you have.
I play a Day setup, and I can sit in on a couple f my friends' Emmons setup guitars. But only if their E raises and E lowers are on the left knee where mine are. I have just jumped on stage, and within the 15 break for the band, was able to acclimate myself to the Emmons setup. I have a friend who has those levers on his right knee, and I cannot play it. It would take me more than a few minutes to adjust. |
5 and 10 are raised by my second pedal (from left), 3 raises 3 and 4 raises 4. I don't think 4 is working quite right though. It has a detent in it. Raises 5 in two half steps and attempts to raise 4 on the second half but never quite makes it. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 5:13 pm
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P3 (as the B pedal) should raise s3 and s6.
Your description looks a lot like the emmons setup. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 5:49 pm
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The "detent" you feel is also called "notchy", and is often felt in push-pull guitars.
It's normal, because timing pulls to stop and end together is harder,
If the 4ht string isn't going all the way to F#, you'll want to loosen the collar on the 4th string pull rod and move it closer to the bellcrank, but just a little. Just a little.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 12 Aug 2014 6:35 pm
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It sounds as though you mean pedal 2 raises 5 & 10, pedal 4 raises 3 & 4, and you'll probably find pedal 3 raises 3 & 6. Pedal 1 will have an optional set of changes such as the "Franklin Pedal" or something else. It does sound like an Emmons setup.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 12:12 am
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My 2 cents:
You're new to the pedal steel guitar.
You build racing car engines, so you are probably mechanically very handy.
Take a good look at how the push-pull system works, then move the pedals/levers to a more standard setup, there's no point in hampering yourself from the start with a non-standard setup.
As you are a tall person, you may need to reset the first pedal to raise strings 5 and 10 a tone, instead of what it is currently doing (which can be done on a knee lever). This is known as the 'A' pedal.
Then the second pedal will raise strings 3 and 6 a semitone (called the 'B' pedal)
Then set the third pedal to raise strings 4 and 5 a tone ('C' pedal)
Set the Left Knee Left(LKL)lever to raise strings 4 and 8 a semitone
Set LKR to lower strings 4 and 8 a semitone.
The RKL lever varies quite a bit in what people put on it, I raise string 1 a semitone and lower string 6 a tone, but a lot of players have different uses for this lever.
Set RKR to lower string 2 a tone, and string 9 a semitone.
If you do decide to reset your steel, I will post details of what to do, and what to look out for.
Push-pulls seem to suffer from the law of unintended consequences, and a seemingly innocent adjustment can have serious ramifications furthur up the chain, causing much head-scratching  |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 4:34 am
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I had been working on "Fooled around and fell in love" with help from a youtube tutorial. I got the descending part just fine, but when it begins to ascend and return, nothing worked. I was doing everything just as he was doing in the video but it just wasn't happening. Finally this thread made me realize that my pedals aren't operating correctly. One of them isn't pulling the note in tune.
Someone on here has recommended I go see a guy named Doug Palmer who lives right here in Greensboro that is an Emmons guy. I think that is probably my best course of action. I'm sure that I can tinker with this thing and figure it out but I would really like a pedal steel guy to take a look and tell me exactly what I have and what course of action would be prudent. Maybe I can talk this guy into a lesson or two while we're at it. Can't hurt to know a peddle steel guy in my area. |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 4:51 am
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| Also, if anybody knows how to get in touch with Doug Palmer, that would be great. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 5:07 am
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If you're on Facebook, so is he. Search on the name, he's the one wearing yellow and blowing a tenor sax.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 5:10 am
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Your pedal arrangement is standard emmons. What you call P1 with the g# to F# lower on s6 is what most people call P0, and is a standard change in a location where that change often ends up with a 4 lever guitar.
Your knee lever arrangement is 90 percent of what MSA had on their guitars as a standard setup. MSA was probably the sales leader in the era your guitar was built
In general, steel players need to be concerned as to what the lever does, moreso than where it is located, with the caveat that some copedents are more self-compatible than others.
I just want you to understand that your particular pedal and lever arrangement isn't unheard of or non-standard by any stretch. It just may not be to the personal preference or habit of individual players. There is nothing wrong with it, per se.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 13 Aug 2014 6:22 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 5:16 am
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Peter, which pedal(s) or levers and which string(s) aren't moving right?
To help diagnose it, try reaching under the guitar and pushing on the finger to make sure the changer itself can move all it needs to.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Peter Harrell
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2014 6:32 am
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| My far right pedal raises the 4th (I think) string a pitch and a half instead of a whole or a half pitch. |
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