What steels have the shortest pedal travel?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I'm interested in what steels, new or older, have the shortest pedal travel, particularly on the AB&C floor pedals. On virtually all pro steels one can set the pedals for short and firm, or long and light pedal action. So no need to tell me about that. Assume every steel is set up as short and quick as is possible for that steel; which is shortest?

I'm currently playing an 83 Emmons push-pull with everything set for the shortest possible pedal travel. I was playing it without shock springs on the pedals, and the travel was very good; short and quick. But then I took Mike Cass's advice and added back the shock springs to prevent damage to various components. Now I occasionally hit sour notes due to not cleanly engaging and disengaging floor pedals when rocking on and off A&B or B&C. Thus this inquiry.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

Excel

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Excel steels & Peavey amps,Old Chevys & Motorcycles & Women on the Trashy Side

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

This makes a good case for eliminating those pesky shock springs where ever you can. Also take of the return springs on P1 & P2 next to the "hook", readjust the pulls and call me in the morning.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Flamma Reverb, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Larry: I don't understand how the return springs affect the functioning of the A, B, or C floor pedals on a push pull. I was just underneath my guitar and those return springs only move when the given string is lowered.

I did notice that the shock springs I re-installed are a bit long. Perhaps shortened springs would be an improvement on pedal travel issue, yet still provide the protection Mike Cass recommends.

PS: I believe it was Bob Bowman who once told me to try taking off the shock springs on the longest travel for each pedal. I did it, and it certainly worked, until I broke the C pedal cross-shaft. That got me worried.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Just finished shortening the shock springs and the old PP certainly plays better.

But I'd still like to know what steels have fairly short and quick pedal action, particularly when compared to a Push-Pull Emmons.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

My new Williams keyless both has very short AND very light travel, compared to other steels (even to my keyed Williams, which has lighter/shorter travel than many others)...keyless makes the strings shorter, obviously, which means less travel is needed for same pitch change...I had to start wearing lighter-soled shoes to be able to feel the pedals without pressing them. No "resting the feet on the pedals" like some push-pull folks do....

This quote from Gene Fields addresses the whole story (although I personally do prefer the Williams to the GFI; I've had both):
When using keys for tuning, the excess string length needed to reach the keys from the nut absorbs vibration, taking energy from the main body of the string and decreasing sustain. This is eliminated with Keyless Tuning. Pedal and knee lever travel is decreased since there is less string to stretch. Pedal and knee lever action also feels more solid. The length of the instrument is shorter, therefore stronger, minimizing detuning while pressing pedals. Strings break less frequently since less movement of the bridge cam is required to acquire the same pitch. Undesirable overtones created by the excess string length are also eliminated with the keyless system. These overtones are detrimental to the pure tone of the instrument, as they will vary with string gauge, string length beyond the nut, and the location of the bar on the strings.
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Bobby Boggs · From: Upstate SC.

You broke a pedal cross-shaft on a PP?? Just for my education. Where did the crossbar break. I can only guess. Where the pedal rod hooks?

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Bobby: The cross-shaft that broke was purchased from the Emmons company directly about 5 years ago. What broke was the connection between the shaft and the gizmo (bell crank?) that the pedal rod attaches to. So when I pressed the floor pedal the bell crank moved, but it was just spinning on the cross-shaft. Nothing was getting transmitted to the changer. Hope that makes sense.

The shaft and bell crank could probably be re-brazed or welded, but I just bought a new cross-shaft from Mike Cass. Mike said he'd never heard of such a thing happening. Perhaps it was just a defective braze or weld. But maybe the lack of a shock spring took it's toll.

Enough about the Emmons. I may get tired of the weight of the D10 Emmons, and might want to buy a different steel. Maybe even a single 10, perhaps even keyless. Short pedal and knee lever travel is important to me.

So I see votes for the Excel and the Williams. The BMI keyless push-pull sounds pretty interesting. Any other steels to consider????
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Paul,,,,,my Lamar keyless has a straight pull changer,,,the only guitar ever made that I know of with this type of changer. Because of the straight pull design, not only do the lowers have helper strings,,,but the raises also have springs built into the changer to help. I believe this allows for the the shortest and EASIEST action. For more info you'd have to talk to Lamar,,,but be forewarned,,,he is not one to "toot his own horn".

Ross Shafer · From: Petaluma, California

I'm a machinist and have actually measured the pedal travel distance (done with an electronic angle gauge) and the force needed (using a force gauge) to engage a change on several steels. The steels that measured the shortest and lightest were a Kline a Zum and an EMCI that had been set up by Frank Carter (the Kline measured shortest/lightest). I measured the Zum with and without the raise helper springs, they took about 1 pound off the pedal force needed which put the measurements on the lighter/shorter end of "average" range.

I own an S10 Lamar very much like yours Sonny....I love it, great steel and made by a wonderful guy, but it's travel/force measurements (after I set it up for shortest/lightest put in the "average" range amongst the steels I measured. I measured it with and without the helper springs behind the string "sleds" and there was little measurable difference. I'm not certain, but I think the shortness of the springs doesn't allow them to offer much help. Also since one end of them is cut to get the needed length the perpendicular end required for accurate/consistent seating they tended to make a tiny bit of noise so I took them out and used those screws to tune splits with instead. Not any kind of real problem, I still love my Lamar

The only springs my Lamar has that affects lowers (now that the raise helpers are removed which raised the force required for lowers) are the return springs at the bottom of the changer. Are these what you are calling helper springs for the lowers? The only way they can lighten the pressure needed to engage a lower is by backing them off to the point where they just barely pull the lower back and adding just a touch more tension.....pretty much the same as all all-pull steels.

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Has Anyone Tested The Pedal Travel On A Blanton PSG? Smile

Roger

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

[quote="Paul Sutherland"]

I'm currently playing an 83 Emmons push-pull with everything set for the shortest possible pedal travel. I was playing it without shock springs on the pedals, and the travel was very good; short and quick. But then I took Mike Cass's advice and added back the shock springs to prevent damage to various components. /quote]

Paul, what springs were you referring to as shock springs? The first thing I do with an Emmons guitar, whether it be push pull or all pull, is take off the pedal return springs. I know that lots don't agree with removing them but to me they make the pedal feel really mushy and stiff. The guitar has to be set up right to accommodate the removal of these springs or your rods will be jumping off. Both my push pulls play really easy but never checked the travel but believe mine to be fairly short as compared to others I've played.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Henry: The "shock springs" are on the raise and lower rods, where the rod meets the bellcrank. Mike Cass warned me that without these shock springs there is a risk of breaking a changer finger over time, and other miscellaneous damage.

I don't understand how you can remove the return springs on the lower rods, located next to the changer. If you don't have a return spring what's going to pull the changer finger back up against the body, thereby bringing the string back up to pitch, after you engage a lower pedal or lever?

From what I can see, these return springs don't have any effect on raises. They only come into play on lowers. So how can removing them effect the action of the A or B floor pedals (assuming you don't have any lowers on those strings--3, 5, 6, & 10)?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Paul, it's the springs that are on the pedal rods.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Henry: You mean those springs where the vertical pedal rods attach to the cross-shafts?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

That's them. I leave them on C6 but take off three E 9th pedals. Some guitars don't even have them..makes pedals feel stiff and mushy to me. Just personal preference I guess.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Paul it the spring that attaches to the cross shafts L bracket.
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Flamma Reverb, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Keyless guitars!!!
PRR

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

We seem to be seeing a pattern of keyless guitars having short pedal travel. The Kline I had, had short pedal travel. Best guitar I ever owned.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

The pedal travel is shorter on a keyless guitar. That's because there is no need to deal with that portion of the string extending beyond the nut. This is especially noticable on the 5th and 6th strings which extend the farthest.

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

That also diminishes the effort required to activate the pedal or lever.
PRR

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