"Learning" the Fretboard

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Over in the Steel Without Pedals section there is a thread regarding "Fretboard Cheat Sheet",,,,and this is a response I posted,,,thought I might include it here,,,,

In my opinion (and a lot of other, MUCH better musicians than me),,,the names of the notes are not nearly as important as the intervals,,,or more specifically the relationship to other notes. And luckily, there is a fool-proof, sure fire way to learn those relationships,,,plus it can be kinda fun. ROOT and FIFTH,,,,,turn on some music,,,find the key (Root) and start playing "bass",,,1,,,5,,,1,,,5,,,,maybe even 1,,3,,5,,3,,1,,3,,5,,etc. Guess what,,,if you know where the 1 and 5 are,,,you pretty much automatically know where the 2 is,,,and the 4,,,and the 6,,,IN RELATION to the root,,,and lets face it,,,it's that relationship that is music,,,,not the "names" of the notes. And while you're "learning" the fretboard,,,you're playing music. After awhile you start seeing how the pedals "pull" notes in to make things line up,,,really,,,isn't that what it's all about?

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Dead right, Sonny. Although I'm only a beginner on PSG I'm enough of a musician to learn the names of all the notes. But instead I find myself doing what you're describing - thinking up and down from the basic notes of 1, 5 and maybe 3. After all, when we listen to a melody it's the intervals that we hear, and it's the same when we play one. Hence the Nashville number system, and the figured bass that Bach used. And if you're not tied to note names, it's much easier to switch key.
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Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Exactly so, Sonny. When I started playing steel in the middle 70's, I thought like that for the major chords in a song, but found myself struggling to quickly find the minors... i.e.; I'd be playing a !, !V, V progression in G and the E minor would come along and I'd be thinking something like "OK, so this is an E minor coming up, so if I played E major I could go up three frets and use the A pedal... or up one fret from pedals down and use just the knee lever, um..." and we were already on to the next chord.

Realizing that I had to train my ear to actually hear the different qualities of chords by their relative position within the chord progression, i.e.; the number system, and use that same system to categorize where the various chord forms are found on the neck/copedant, was a revelation that opened up both playing, and listening and music appreciation. To this day it's the foundation of my approach and teaching methodology, no matter what instrument I'm playing or working on.

It's the secret handshake for professional playing and enjoyment. I wish more students and even long-term players had less resistance to music theory. It's our best friend.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

For complete mastery of the steel you need to know all relative positions and all chord names, in at least three different inversions along the neck, for all 12 keys, along with the scale tones and relative intervals of each note in the various grips.

Laughing

Curt Trisko · From: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Michael Coggins · From: Sligo, Ireland

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I've been a strong believer that knowing the fret board and what chords are on what fret are far more important than learning the notes in each and every key at every fretted position.

I've never played in a situation whereby knowing all of the names of each and every note on every fret position would have any significant importance to me.

To me, its' the fret board PLUS a discriminating EAR! Being able to anticipate the chord changes is also a plus to one's playing.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Maybe my original point was missed,,,,or maybe we're thinking on a different level,,,,,,I know it was many years before I started "hearing" what master players and teachers were actually saying,,,Newman, Anderson, Morrell etc,,,,,NOT names of notes,,,,but INTERVALS,,,,,,TONES,,(by name, number, sound,or whatever,,,,!!!) RELATIVE to other tones. My suggestion was a simple, sure-fire way to "learn" the tones all over the fret board,,,,RELATIVE to some other tone. A tone or note alone is nothing,,,music wise,,,,unless it is relative to something. My suggestion was NOT to learn the names of notes,,,but to learn relationships. Example,,,,take any 4-5 strings on any instrument,,,,find any note (call it a root,,,or "1"),,,now find that note on each string,,,,then find the 5th interval to that note on various strings or places (BTW,,,the 5th interval is what I would call the "nearest relative" to the root),,,,bounce around in 2/4 time on those,,,,then maybe add the 3rd interval,,,in 4/4 time. From there it is not difficult to see where the 4th is,,,,or the 6th,,,,or the flatted 3rd,,,or the 7th,,,etc. Pretty soon you have scale and musical relationships all the place. I see this method as being where some of our great bluesmen,,,or the Appalachia or Kentucky "hillbillies",,,that became masters of their banjos, or mandolins or guitars or dobros, started.

I'm not really talking about chords at this point,,,I mean,,,how much memorization does it take to remember that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th interval make a major triad (chord),,,,and that the other intervals alter that triad,,,,again,,,,INTERVALS!!! Know where those intervals are,,,and you know your fretboard,,,,and you can build chords all day long.

Hey,,,just a suggestion,,,observation or whatever,,,to each his own,,,whatever works best for you,,,if you "need" to know the names of the notes, fine,,,,,or if you want to make music,,,,,Intervals IS music!!!

David Scheidler · From: Arizona, USA

Sonny, you nailed it! I'd always struggled with learning the more complicated elements of music theory until I began to realize that the relationship of intervals is more easily visualized than intellectualized. Note letters or numbers are simply names of those intervals, but can also be a major (no pun intended) source of frustration by way of distraction.

When playing a guitar or mandolin you can actually see the pattern of the intervals within a scale, by looking at which string and fret you're on - in relation to where you were and where you're going next. The real challenge for me on the pedal steel has been to transfer that visual learning process to the additional option of pedals and levers. You have to combine the visual with the imagined result of using those options. It seems very complicated at first, but like everything else, you have to break things down into bite-sized pieces in order to assimilate the information into a concise and cohesive method of understanding.

For example, I used to memorize the visual patterns of scales on fretted instruments without knowing the name of the note, or number of the interval I was on until I "forced" myself to start naming each position as I played my way through the scale. After awhile I began to see the pattern of interval relationships and note names/numbers in my mind, instead of having to refer to an actual chart.

I believe that the next step in this learning process is to practice like crazy and push yourself to automatically anticipate the notes that precede or follow your current position within a scale or chord, by hearing AND seeing what the options are at each position. Over time, this becomes second nature and we can start to solo or jam with confidence.

Okay, I guess that was my intellectualized version of a simple process on how to learn music theory. Oh Well

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Yes David,,,,I forgot to metion,,,,if we would practice this WITHOUT pedals,,,,,we would soon see WHY those pedals were first thought of,,,,,like,,,"hummm,,,if that tone was pulled up one fret, that would line up with this",,,,or,,,whatever. Actually this concept has been advocated, directly or indirectly by much better players than me,,,,,I remember before I got serious about the idea (even though I came from a bass playing background), there was an article by Emmons in a Steel Guitar Player magazine, directed toward learning the C6 fretboard. I think Buddy was advocating relating the root (C) to the 3rd interval,,,then adding other intervals to form pockets. Really doesn't matter which interval the root is related to,,,,I just see (being from a bass background) the 5th interval as being a closer "relative". Like I told my grandaughter with her piano lessons,,,,I see the scale as a family,,,with the family having a head of household,,,and members that relate to and help each other. I see the 5th as being like the mother,,,,and the 6th as being like a colorful "aunt",,,that would might be inclined to "stretch out" sometimes,,,,as the C^ neck seems more inclined to "stretch out",,,swing a little if you will,,,,which was the position Buddy was approaching it from in the article.

This has been a very good tool for me to use when I can't think of something to practice,,,or don't feel inspired. I can put on a rhythm track,,,or BIAB,,,or youtube,,,and feel like I'm making music,,,,and always amazed at the discoveries that dawn on me!!!!

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Knowing if I play the 5th or the 3rd or the b7 in relation to a Root note is far more important to me than to know if I play a C D E F or whatever. Still, one should know where to find a C D E F or whatever if one sits down and look at the fretboard.
A lot of the stuff one struggles with memorizing when starting out can actually be boiled down to very simple rules/systems/patterns that cuts down what you really need to remember.

Simple things like if you harmonize a scale in 3rds you will find only 3 major 3rd intervals there and yes they are on the Root, 4th and 5th note of the scale 99.9% of the time. Their position relative to eachother is the same... always. once you find one of them, you kinda know where the other two are.

Never see chords as isolated chords, trying to find one at a time. A lot of the time all that is required for the next chord is to raise or lower one of the notes in the chord that you are playing right now. Knowing which note to raise/lower (Root, 3rd or 5th) need to be studied a little but it sure gonna help you in the long run.

One thing that has helped me not getting lost was realizing I only needed know 4 notes in order to play any scale, rest was just relative positions.

So for me, I see a C major scale as Cmaj7 + Dm7
in addition to
1 - 2 - 3 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 1 or
O - o - o o - o - o - o O or
whereever I can find a cmaj7 shape(1 3 5 7), no matter what tuning I have.

The Dm7 chord I can play on strings 7 6 5 4 at fret 8 w A+B pedals down.
The Cmaj7 is of course 2 frets down from the Dm7 but I have to play strings 6 and 4 at fret 7 so I dont get a Cminor7th voicing.
Because Cm7 + Dm7 = C dorian scale.

I dont neccessary see the pedals/levers changing the tuning of the guitar and messing up the order of everything so I have to learn the fretboard all over again. Instead I see em playing notes to the left or right of whatever fret my bar is positioned on. Because sometimes I have to copy that same move from one note to the other w a slide instead of using a pedal or a lever.

Take a closer look at both the Cmaj7 and the Dm7 voicing and you should see 4 perfect 5th intervals there.
Cmaj7 use C-G and E-B (perfect 5ths, 4 frets from eachother)
Dm7 use D-A and F-C (perfect 5ths, 3 frets from eacother)

Next time your 3rd string breaks, try soloing on only string 5 and 1.
For the C major scale start on string 5 first fret C
and slide up 4frets to E
back to first fret on string 1 and play G and slide up 4 frets to B
Remember, all you are doing is copying
Cmaj7 use C-G and E-B (perfect 5ths, 4 frets from eachother)
The Dm7 will of course start on 3rd fret and so on.
When you come to G7 you will hopefully notice that the last note on string 1 is played one fret lower than the one on the 5 string. (It is supposed to be that way)

hopefully some parts of this wont be totally confusing and perhaps it can trigger some aha Smile

moments as it sure did for me.

Things that are relative to something simplifies the understanding in a great way.

Bengt Erlandsen
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Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Here is a small example in the key of G that might shed some light how I see it in order to not get lost among all the notes.
What I have done is start with the Root 5th and 3rd of the G major chord.
Then going back and forth twice to show the shape of the Dim chord and the minor Chord before going up the G major scale following this pattern.

Maj --- min --- min Maj --- Maj --- min --- dim Maj

Knowing this structure is really important imo.

One can read it this way as well

I --- IIm --- IIIm IV --- V --- VIm --- VIIdim I

The structure is valid for any key and structure is the same 99.9% of the time.

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Thank you gentlemen... I'm ever amazed by the info shared on this forum. If a new player is not following most of what is written here, for sure he will miss nuggets of gold that can expand his musical knowledge.

Hummm... I guess I could use that 6th string 1/2 step lower after all. Old dogs and new tricks I guess...

Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

This methodology was what Reece Anderson was using for his "Fast Track" method. If you think in terms of intervals with 1 being the root, then all of a sudden once you learn a song you can play it in any key. This is the basis of the Nashville Number System. I believe learning intervals would be a lot easier than remembering TAB. If you arpeggiate a chord you have as stated almost half the scale! Definitely it was the way to go for me. I am just glad I found "interval thinking" early on.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

What!!!!,,,Fantastic Bengt,,,now that's taking it to the next level,,,(I think??) Really, that's taking the knowledge of fretboard intervals and building with them. Those are the "discoveries" I was talking about. Thanks for sharing that Bengt!!!

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

As I've said before, one of the things that gets lost in the discussion of theory/harmonized scales/intervals and learning them on your guitar, is that you can HEAR them as well... regardless of key or "song" structure, you can train your ear to hear the sound of the chords in a harmonized scale (the I, iim iiim, IV, V, vim, viimb5 Bengt references above), and then eventually variations outside of that scale like II (major) iv (minor) v (minor) b VII bIII and so on that occur in many songs.
The ability to hear intervals or chords within the key of the moment, as well as where to find them and what can be played over them, is the secret to playing by ear and creating music in real time.
It all fits together, and it's all the number system.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

AMEN bro's Mark and Bengt. Like I said earlier, seems like I've lost a lot of inspiration,,,and initiative to "practice",,so sometimes I kinda force myself to sit behind my steel and "do something!!" One thing I do is,,,I have this rhythm track from an old Jeff Newman seminar,,,has about 8-10 chord progressions on it,,,I think it's purpose was to help you find and use those not so familiar chords,,,out of the box type progressions,,,ONE MEASURE per chord. It's fun,,,and somewhat difficult for me to keep up,,,playing single note bass style,,,finding and playing the interval that defines the chord form,,,an interesting challenge.

I mentioned Tom Morrell earlier,,,I didn't know Tom that well,,,but Reece told me that he could sit down at any tuning,,,strum across it once, hear the intervals,,,and was good to go. It sounded as if the "name" of the key was not a factor once the "starting place" was established (which seemed to be instantaneous). Intervals, relative to a root,,,that's music.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Am glad that I can share some ways to view the neck(string combinations and such)thats hopefully understandable even if one doesnt know a lot of music theory.
The applications for using bits and pieces of that
Maj --- min --- min Maj --- Maj --- min --- dim Maj
structure is only limitied by imagination.

Here is a small example that starts in G (I chord) and goes up to the C (IV chord)
The cool thing is the you only have to move the bar 1 fret at a time.

Gary Cooper · From: Atmore, Alabama

Thanks guys. This has been a great thread for me. I learned ome things. THANK YOU
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Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Just some food for thought.
Once you know how to play the Cmajor Ionian scale you also know the 6 other scales within there, named Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian and Locrian (they just have a different starting note than the C but you also know the minor pentonic scale Rolling Eyes

which would be all the "wrong" notes starting on the Eb note (3 frets higher then the C) Very Happy

Put it all together and you dont have to memorize 8 different scales. Or turn it around. If you know where the minor pentonic scale is then the major scale will be all the wrong notes.
C major scale + Eb minor pentatonic = Chromatic scale

Bent Erlandsen

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

This must be one of the most informative threads I've read...so much so that I saved it in my favorites so I can continue coming back to it...

Bengt, Mark, and Sonny...you all have a gift for painting very nice word pictures, which are a benefit to this very visual type guy...Some things click and other's will take a little more study...I've always played by positions, which I guess might be considered intervals, and you all have shed a brighter light what I know or don't know...Thanks!!

I hope this tread keeps going for a very long, time as I'm sure there will be many more nuggets to glean from it.

Dale
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Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

It's all about finding whatever combination of approaches helps us internalize the connections that allow us to hear and create.

I was fortunate enough to attend Jeff Newman's first advanced/teachers week-long class, and one day he spent all morning on hearing the number system, charting and diagramming songs "the way the session guys in Nashville do". (It was fascinating to me that half the class just folded their arms and refused to even try.) Jeff would play songs and progressions and have us note them in the Number System in real time, then play them back and do it on the blackboard to check our work. I actually did pretty well, but I noticed that when there was more than one minor chord in a song, I often mixed up the 6 minor and 2 minor chords.

I stayed in the classroom when everyone went to lunch, and played through all the exercises again- and I found that just the very fact of knowing that I had been confusing or switching the 2 and 6 minors made it easy to actually hear the difference, once I focused on their individual sounds. That really stuck with me and I found that each new chord or progression presented the same "otherness" or difference at first, but by focusing on those very differences, I was able to hear and internalize the sound of each new chord within the number system hierarchy. It's made everything about playing easier and lots more fun.

I'm kind of a musical dolt, so if I can do it, I'm convinced that everyone can.
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Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Hey Mark,,,I think that is a very similar concept Jeff used on the "Super Song" seminar that he did,,(When he found something that worked and spent the time putting it together, he had a tendency to use it over,,,or incorporate parts into other ideas). The "Super Song" progressions are what I use to play "bass style" single note, 2/4 or 4/4 time. It is great to help you see and hear which tone changes the chord. My suggestion to begin this thread was to take 3-4 adjacent strings, find the roots (3-4 different positions), find relative 5ths and bounce around in 2/4 bass style, not necessarily bass strings. Once familiar with those positions, add the 3rds, 4/4 time. Once those are familiar,,,it is not difficult to locate the other scale tones (either side of) and use those to alter the chord to fit the various progressions. I said in my first post in this thread,,,it is a "sure-fire" way to learn the fretboard IN INTERVALS,,,and I believe it is. Sometimes when I just turn on a radio or whatever,,,I just find the root and play along,,,,not paying as much attention to the "key" as I should,,,,doesn't really matter,,,the root is "1",,,everything else is relative. And then how about 2 note harmonies,,,and chords,,,,I'm convinced, if a person wants to "learn" the fretboard,,,this will accomplish that.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Well I just got an email from a friend of mine telling me that he had a DVD from Bobbe Seymour advocating and showing how to play 1-3-5 patterns on the lower strings. Not sure if it was as a means of "learning" the fretboard or ???,,,,but,,,I know if a person will start,,,and put just a little thought into it,,,there are "discoveries" to be made,,,,,"aha" moments.

Dana Shaw · From: Maine, USA

This is your basic stuff that took me a long time to figure out. If you ever expect to "soar with the big guy's" you HAVE to know this by heart. Try finding all your notes on just one string. Make up your major, minor chords etc. and you really get a "visual". If you get past this, get your technique down, your good to go!

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