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Author Topic:  Push Pull Changer Settings?
Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 10:45 am     Reply with quote

Hi Gang

Could y'all P/P owners post your hole position on the changer for strings 3,4,5,6,8, and 10?

Here is mine:

A pedal, 10th string middle hole, 5th string third hole.

B pedal, 6th string middle hole, 3th string middle hole.

C pedal, 5th string third hole, 4th string third hole.

E-F lever, 4th string third hole, 8th string third hole

(First hole is *farthest* from strings)

thx

bob


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Jeff Peterson


From:
Nashville, TN USA
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 4:38 pm     Reply with quote

Your raises depend on your lowers. If you're not lowering certain strings, you don't need to go close to the body for the raise(given string travel anomaly), thereby easing up pedal travel(too dang short), and feel(too darn stiff). You cannot just give arbitrary selections for holes(my wife said), and expect the guitar to be set up well and play correctly. So there.
So it comes down to the diagnostic.....do you lower your 3rd, 6th and all them others? To balance this whole mess, takes time. Some lower 5, but not 10...lower 6, but not 3.....and all that. Every Push Pull I've worked on is different for each player....some extremely hard(Zane King), some reeeeeally easy(Bobbe Seymore)...BUT... for each player they really need to be worked for maximum comfort and playability. Seek a pro mechanic, grasshopper, and you will end with the best sounding guitar ever made, and one you can play and live with for several lifetimes and receive the kudos for which you are well deserved I'm sure.

[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 29 November 2002 at 04:49 PM.]

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John Macy


From:
Denver, CO/Rockport, TX
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 5:01 pm     Reply with quote

Hey Jeff--

Drop me an email--I misplaced your address .
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John Macy


From:
Denver, CO/Rockport, TX
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 5:03 pm     Reply with quote

Hey Jeff--

Drop me an email--I misplaced your address .
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Chris Bauer


From:
Nashville, TN USA
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 5:37 pm     Reply with quote

Geeeez, John! You misplaced Jeff's address again THAT quickly?
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John Macy


From:
Denver, CO/Rockport, TX
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 5:43 pm     Reply with quote

You know, these days it's geting hard to remeber what I had for breakfast

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 29 Nov 2002 5:43 pm     Reply with quote

Jeff (Obi Wan)

I do lower 3,4,5,6,8,10. Thinking of removing all those like on Jay Dee's guitar that plays Soooooooooooo nice.

bob

ps Please email me too?

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Allan Thompson


From:
Scotland.
Post Posted 30 Nov 2002 1:06 pm     Reply with quote

Hey John,
Just wait till you can`t remember if you`ve even had breakfast.
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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 7 Dec 2002 9:08 am     Reply with quote

Nobody has a P/P that they could check the settings?

bob
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rhcarden


From:
Lampe,Mo / USA
Post Posted 7 Dec 2002 11:27 am     Reply with quote

A pedal
5 string 2nd hole.
10 string 2nd hole.

B pedal
3 string 3rd hole / long bellcrank.
6th string 1 hole / short bellcrank.

No C pedal. E to F# RLR.

I do not use any springs and the pull fingers to not hit the body.

(1st hole is farthest from the body.)

------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 7 Dec 2002 2:28 pm     Reply with quote

Thanks, Bob

Didn't know that there were 2 sizes of bellcranks!

bob

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rhcarden


From:
Lampe,Mo / USA
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 9:36 am     Reply with quote


With the use of a saw and torch, they can be adjusted!

------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7
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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 9:41 am     Reply with quote

Just goes to show..........



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David Doggett


From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 11:23 am     Reply with quote

Guys, I need to figure this out, too. I just picked up an Emmons S12 E9 P/P, and it needs some work and adjustments. It has no raises or lowers on the bottom two strings (G# and low E). I want them set up the same as the strings an octave above. Also, there was too much pedal travel, I couldn't rock the AB or BC pedals without touching the wrong pedal and playing out of tune. Many of the pull rods were attached to what you are calling the first hole (the longest throw one farthest from the strings). And I am in the process of moving them to the middle hole. I was thinking to use the 3rd hole (shortest throw) for half step pulls, the middle one for whole step pulls, and maybe the 1st hole if I wanted any 1 1/2 step pulls (doubt if I will want any of these). But now that you have mentioned it, there was one short bell crank hooked to the 3rd hole - and I think I see the reasoning for this. But I'm not clear on what this has to do with lowers on the same string.

Another problem is where to stop the pulls. They can be stopped at the body, or stopped with the little allen head screws for each pedal rod or knee lever. I was thinking that the longest pull should be stopped at the body (should give the best tone), and any additional shorter pulls should be stopped with the pedal or lever stops. Does that make sense?

What is the point of the little springs on the pull rods between the bell crank and the collar? Some rods have these and others don't.

Finally, I'd welcome any suggestions on the best place to get parts. I've gotten a few suggestions on this already.

Thanks for any help. I'd rather spend what little time I have playing the damn thing rather than doing surgery on it. But I guess I have to have some patience to get it set up right. Lord it sounds great, and you should hear those low strings.
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richard burton


From:
Britain
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 11:32 am     Reply with quote

Make sure all your raises stop at the body.
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 12:46 pm     Reply with quote

Make sure the MAXIMUM RAISE on EACH STRING stops at the body.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro
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rhcarden


From:
Lampe,Mo / USA
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 6:42 pm     Reply with quote

Note!

Make sure that the pedal reaches maximum travel at the same time the pull finger hits the body. That little spring between the bellcrank and collar on the pull rod is there to: 1. prevent breaking the pull finger, and: 2. equilize the travel when more than one string is pulled with the same pedal.

I don't use any springs on the A and B pedals, but; if you don't know what you're doing, don't take them off. You can damage your guitar!

There are some who say that if the pull fingers do not hit the body of the guitar, you will not get a good tone. I have the following notes where the fingers do not hit and I don't here a tone change (1st string G, 2nd string D, 3rd string A, 4th string F, 5th string C and C#, 6th string G and A, and 10 string C and C#. I 've been told that my tone is very good! It must be the hands. No! It,s a 66 Emmons bolt-on p/p!


------------------
Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

[This message was edited by rhcarden on 09 December 2002 at 07:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by rhcarden on 09 December 2002 at 07:22 PM.]

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Jeff Peterson


From:
Nashville, TN USA
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 7:44 pm     Reply with quote

rhcarden, if your C#'s and G's aren't hitting the body, you are out of adjustment...flat, there ya' go, how d'ya do, thas' all ya' got, and if you have no springs on your first two pedals, the feel can't be optimum, I'm sure. Again, all your raises are dictated by your lowers. But, by what you say you're doing, you're out of optimum adjustment. There are many variables between travel, ratio, compensation between pedals, and other factors that can hold any potentially great guitar from working to it's full ability.
Tone is in Emmons...born that way...can be better with adjustment. 'Bolt-on' was good....Emmons (Ron Sr.) changed it....tone got better. Just had to say the bolt-on was not the end-all to the Emmons tone search.
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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 9 Dec 2002 8:11 pm     Reply with quote

Jeff,

For opimal pedal action, do you reccommend not having lowers on strings that raise? (Except for strings 4&8)

If a string (5) has a lower, does the raise require more throw than if it was a raise only?

How are your personal P/P's set up?

thx

bob
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 10 Dec 2002 8:01 am     Reply with quote

If you look at the push-pull changer as a kid on a swing,
* you can PUSH on the swing and the kid goes backward (a LOWER)
* you can PULL on the swing and the kid goes foreward (a RAISE)
* the furthest the kid can go is determined by the ropes on the swing (same limitations on the changer)
* when the swing is not moving, the kid is somewhere near the middle of the distance it can go in both directions -- that's the BALANCE POINT
SOMETIMES, that balance point is further back, so that more than half of the travel can be used for a raise -- OR -- the balance point can be set further ahead, allowing more travel for the lower. (does that make sense?)

So, if you have a big raise (whole tone, for example) AND a big lower on a string, it will require more slack in the changer to allow the lower to complete without the raise finger kicking in. There may be a point where getting both is not possible -- e.g., a wound 6th string will not lower a whole tone on any push-pull I've owned. But a plain sixth can raise AND lower a whole tone without a problem (one reason JayDee doesn't lower the 6th).

That's why you balance the changer before doing anything. To balance or 'tune' the changer, you manually push the lower finger and tune it to lower the proper interval for the MAXIMUM LOWER you need for any pedal or lever; let it return; pull on the raise finger and tune it to hit the body at the MAXIMUM RAISE. The changer is in tune if you can manually push the raise finger and the string raises that same interval. Same with lowers.

Like Jeff says, you set the lower first then set the raise to allow the lower to complete (slack) before the raise begins. Shock springs can make the slack less noticeable and improve the action.
Hope that didn't just confuse you.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 December 2002 at 08:12 AM.]

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 December 2002 at 12:03 PM.]

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Bob Snelgrove


From:
san jose, ca
Post Posted 10 Dec 2002 10:20 am     Reply with quote

Larry

Do you agree that the raise changer hole will be different if that string has a lower? I know it will have slack, but why would the leverage of the raise(changer hole) be different?

bob
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Larry Bell


From:
Englewood, Florida
Post Posted 10 Dec 2002 11:45 am     Reply with quote

Bob,
No, I don't agree. I believe that it would only be necessary if you need more throw -- the bottom hole (furthest from the axle) might do that for you. It's been a while since I worked on mine, but I seem to recall the leverage does not really change much -- you can do more to adjust feel with shock springs. Only other reason might be to synchronize the pulls like the A pedal where you have a wound and a plain string. That's generally done with shock springs too. The amount of travel required by the longest pull will determine the shortest possible pedal throw. The spring can eliminate the 'catch' when the shorter pull kicks in. (you probably already knew that)

My Emmons is in the studio right now, so I can't tell you fer sure, but most of the raises are in the middle hole (what you call #2). My guitar is a U-12 and most every string is raised and lowered and the action is excellent (IMHO).

Is there something you're trying to do that the changer won't do properly? Most push-pulls I've played do have slightly longer throw than an all-pull, but I've never had a problem adjusting to it.

Dave -- you need to raise your B pedal slightly, relative to the A pedal, if you can't rock completely off the A with B pressed.

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 December 2002 at 11:55 AM.]

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Bobby Bowman


From:
Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.
Post Posted 10 Dec 2002 1:10 pm     Reply with quote

Fella's,
I don't mean to sound like a "smart ass" here. I don't mean it in that kind of context. So please don't get the wrong impression of what I'm gonna try to say.
First off, unless you are using this guitar as a learning tool (and that is not a bad idea if you can spare the time until the guitar in actual playing situations), then you're probably better off to have someone who knows what they're doing to set the guitar up.
A lot of what I read above is either wrong or confusing or both. It's all about leverage, leverage ratios, balancing or unbalancing, as the case may be, changes that relate to each other. And this process does not necessarily just mean the changes that are on an individual pedal or lever. They all should work together "as a team" and be complimenterary to one another and at the same time give the guitar a chance to be at the best operating performance that it can be, given the nature of the changes you want to do. I've said it before and I'll say it again,,,,"KISS" (keep it simple stupid) is by far the best principle to keep in mind (at least in most cases) when setting up any guitar. If you have to or need to go beyond "KISS", then you surely MUST know what you're doing, know how to do it and still maintain the integrity of the guitar. When incountering these "advanced problems" there is usually more than one way to "skin the cat" and you need to know which is best and right for your guitar and you particular situation. Unless you are a mechanical genius or wizzard, there is usually years of "learning" what will and what will not work to its' fullest potential on one of these mechanical machines.
I'm all for you learning, but, I'm also all for you learning the right things to do.
Simply put, the guitar itself will tell you whether it's the right and best way or not. Use common sense in most cases and don't try to make the guitar do more than it was designed to do. If a particular guitat won't do efficiently and practally what you want, you're better off trying to find one that will,,,if that can be done.
All that being said, I wish you good fortune in your endevors.
I should also add as a very important afterthought, alot of the time, it's not necessarily the limits of the guitar as it is the strings.
BB

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!


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John Lacey


From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
Post Posted 11 Dec 2002 7:34 am     Reply with quote

Larry, great analogy with the swing bit. Good as long as the kid doesn't start pumping with his legs, right?
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John Lacey


From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
Post Posted 11 Dec 2002 7:44 am     Reply with quote

"For opimal pedal action, do you reccommend not having lowers on strings that raise? (Except for strings 4&Cool". Pardon me for jumping on Jeff's possible response, but, for me, on the first two pedals, I don't have any lowers. Partly cause I don't use the B-Bb lower and I wanted to simplify things on important pedals. I believe I've got the 10th. string pulling on the first hole and the 5th. on the 1st. or 2nd. hole and a shock spring on the 10th. to balance it off with the 5th. I DO lower the 6th. string a whole tone and have the 6th. string raise on the 2nd. hole (I think, I'll have to check as my guitar is at the club). Do listen to Jeff's and Bobby's advice, they're are trench warriors that do this for a living all the time. They're advice is invaluable.

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