| Author |
Topic: Why do a lot of builders have 7 to 9 months waiting list.? |
Steve Feldman
From:
Central MA USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2001 10:56 am |
|
| Quote: |
| An instrument assembled the way Carter does it will last longer, and play better than one assembled by someone attempting to do everything by hand, filing and adjusting this and that to make the thing work. |
I'll have to throw in against this as a blanket statement myself. While there is probably a lot to be said for consitancy of quality brought to the mix by the Carters, the same can be said of McDonalds hamburgers. They don't sell millions and bajillions of 'em because they're wonderful hamburgers, but rather because when you buy one, you know you're not going to get any surprises.
I've said before, tons of folks love the Carter and no doubt for very good reason, but I can also appreciate the one-of-a-kind sense that comes from someone doing everything by hand. |
|
|
|
Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2001 11:50 am
|
|
Steel guitars are not hamburgers!
Not before UPS handles them, anyway. |
|
|
|
Steve Feldman
From:
Central MA USA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2001 12:59 pm
|
|
| OK, OK - I get it. Bad analogy. Course, if you happened to love McDonald's hamburgers, then it would have been a good analogy. The take home message is that this is not an either/or situation. Lots of folks make fine guitars using both approaches. |
|
|
|
Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
|
Posted 10 Feb 2001 1:43 pm
|
|
Steve,
McDonald's hamburgers are OK, but don't buy the chicken McNuggets -- there may indeed be a surprise waiting for somebody. Did you read about the fried chicken head some poor soul found in his box of McNuggets? |
|
|
|
Steel tryin
From:
Macon, Ga.
|
Posted 10 Feb 2001 4:29 pm
|
|
Last time I talked to Bruce Zumsteg
he was totally enjoying his work. He makes
em just the way he makes em and that's
all folks. 7-9 months is the deal no
way around it in his mind. |
|
|
|
John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
|
Posted 11 Feb 2001 8:42 am
|
|
| One factor nobody has really brought up was economics. A well run company with a great cash flow and great credit will have a much faster delivery time than a company with problems, all other things being equal. These guys are not millionaires, I believe that many of them exist on a shoestring budget and difficulties with financing could lead to delivery delays. Chime in, builders. |
|
|
|
Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
|
Posted 11 Feb 2001 9:02 am
|
|
Another factor in delivery time is the objective of the builder. In other words, what are the reasons the builder is in the business? If one of the top reasons is the personal fulfillment and satisfaction gained from building an instrument, then it's likely that the builder doesn't really care about quick delivery, and will take his/her sweet time.
If, on the other hand, the objective of the builder is to make as big a profit as possible, or to gain a major share of the market, etc., then the builder will try like heck to cut the delivery time down to a minimal amount so that he/she can sell as many as possible.
These factors do not necessarily affect product quality. That is, a high volume, profit-minded steel guitar builder can turn out a high quality product just as can the sole proprieter who does it for the love of the instrument. Likewise, either can turn out absolute crap. [This message was edited by Tom Olson on 11 February 2001 at 09:03 AM.] |
|
|
|
HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
|
Posted 11 Feb 2001 11:37 am
|
|
The capacity for production is a factor. It may take three weeks to build a steel,but it may be three months before production begins due to previous orders. It just seems that this is the norm here. I have had three NON pedal steels built for me during the last two years by different makers. I have waited no less than four months, that being the quickest delivery time. I've resigned myself to this fact; it is,what it is.
------------------
[This message was edited by HowardR on 11 February 2001 at 11:38 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bobby Bowman
From:
Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.
|
Posted 11 Feb 2001 3:10 pm
|
|
As a rule of thumb, time does not necessaryly have much of an effect on quality or the lack of it. Even in the "fast delivery" shops there is a lot of time put into having the parts made. Machines and machinests, anywhere, have about the same amount of work and the time it takes to do it. Cabinet makers, case makers and anyother thing that has to be made takes about the same amount of time, no matter who you are. The difference in delivery time, in my opinion, is mainly dependent on your economic situation. If you have enough money to get a lot of parts made at one time, then after the time it takes to make those parts, you have a "ready" supply and you simply reach in a get the part you need. (it's really far from being just that simple, but perhaps you get the idea?) If, after all the trials and tribulations of design and function, you're lucky enough to have "that big stock" of parts, then you can usually deliver a guitar in a reasonable short period of time. Most of us builders are not that fortunate, moneywise, and have a much longer period of time of production.
The builder who does the biggest percentage of his own building is only one person who must do all the things necessary to produce a guitar that maybe 10 or more people are doing when you "sub out" the parts. (let me say here, that most of you have no idea what all is entailed in producing and finally delivering a guitar. Believe me, it is no simple task)
Even if you do sub out the parts, the production schedules of the subcontractor plays a big part in delivery time. Usually those shops have a lot of other things to do than just making steel guitar parts for you, so you probably have no choice but to wait on him.
The older and more established steel makers that have had the money to get mass produced parts have most of those problems behind them.
One thing I can promise you, the buyer, that we, the builders, are not in any way form or fashion getting rich. It makes no difference if your company is big or small or what your profit margin is ,if any, there's just not not that much profit in it. If you have your work subed out, then the machinest makes the most money in the whole deal. If you make your own parts, and if you consider the time it takes to make them, then you are probably working for less than minimum wages by the time you deliver and collect your money.
Even though steel guitars cost the buyer a lot of money, in most cases they are a bargin. Most anything you buy these days cost a lot of money. How many other things do you buy that brings you so much joy and at the same time can, if you so choose, make you money while you are enjoying it.....not many things.
I, like some, if not most of you have spent a fortune on steel guitars and all that we need or find to go along with them. I've made some money performing with them over the years so, I try to look at the whole picture rather than just the original purchase price.
Some guitars I waited as long as 15 months to get. Some as little as a few days or a week or two. No matter,,,,you can bet your bottom dollar that somewhere in there, somebody spent a lot of time as well as money before I got the guitar in hand. If the builder had all it takes to make one in stock, then I got it faster. If not, then I had to wait longer while they were being made, considering all that may or may not be involved. And that's about the bottom line of it.
BB
One small example: a couple of years ago, the company I had employed to make the "custom made" return springs----the machine they had to make those springs broke down. Now, the company that made the machine that made the springs took a little over seven months to deliver a new machine. The spring making company had a $h!t pot of back orders, including mine, to fill and that took up another 3 months after they got the new machine. I was dead in the water and couldn't help it. Did my customers understand? Most of them did, but there's always "that few" who don't or won't. There can be so many "unknown" factors. Most of you guys (and that's no fault of your own) just do not realise what all it takes and how everything must "jell", so to speak, together for one of these babies to be "born".
------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
|
|
|
|
John DeBoalt
From:
Harrisville New York USA
|
Posted 14 Feb 2001 5:46 pm
|
|
| Dear Graham is it easy to make comments about someone's knoweldge when you don't even know them ? I have 32 years experience in manufacturing, and 28 years in Quality Control. I'm currently Quality Assurance Manager at a manufacturing plant employing over 300 people, so I think I have a clue. But thats neither here or there. If my comments seemed a bit harsh to anyone, it may be because I had had a conversation with a guy who is affiliated with a couple other brands of PSG. The dude totally screwed up my string order. When I called to see how he wanted to handle it, he told me I not only needed new strings, I needed a new guitar. The guitar came the way I ordered it, the strings didn't,I'm thinking I need a new string supplier. Also I'm not really knocking hand made instruments, my Deneve resonator guitar is hand made by a guy who makes about 10 or 12 a year, and I love it. I've had it about 10.5 years now. But the point that I made badly is that each guitar that Mr. Deneve makes is different in tone, volume, and finish quality. That is the difference between one of a kind guitars, and folks who have made a business out of repeatable manufacturing. |
|
|
|
Graham
From:
Marmora, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 14 Feb 2001 7:04 pm
|
|
John:
My comments were not addressed to your knowledge in your line of work, but rather to the building of a steel guitar. Most, if not all the custom builders probably make their parts from patterns and therefore do not have a need to file etc. to get them to fit. They have long since passed by that. Your analogy might better fir a layman trying to make his own steel in his workshop. There, I could see the possibility of a problem. I personally, can only speak to the Fulawka steel because I have been in the Fulawka shop and watched the parts being made and a guitar assemble from those parts, and please believe me, no filing was done on any part to make it fit correctly. I only surmise the other builders have reached the same level because, like Ed Fulawka, they have perfected their art. In my mind, they wouldn't still be in business and selling steels if they hadn't. This in turn lead me to believe that your statement that "this guitar" will last longer and play better, was made out of ignorance or a lack of knowledge on how these craftsmen build their guitars. IMHO, as said on this Forum before, ANY brand of modern steel is as good as another and they are all exceptionally well made and should give you a lifetime of trouble free use.
I meant to cast no aspersion on your general knowledge and if you took it that way, I sincerely apologize to you for it. I believe I may have made my point badly too.
------------------
Rebel™
ICQ 614585
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
|
|
|
|
Bob Brocius
From:
Lake Katrine, NY USA Don't blink, you'll miss it.!
|
Posted 14 Feb 2001 10:27 pm
|
|
Rebel, I was at a show not too long ago where several PSG makers had models on display. There, I found out that not all parts are machined!!! Looking underneath one guitar, I found welds that were filed down. Since this surprised me and it is something I didn't like, I was glad it was a brand that I had passed up. I'm happy to say there are no welded parts on my new guitar.
------------------
Bobby Brocius, ZumSteel D-10, 8x8, Blue, BL910s
JCH D-10 9x7 Probably for sale soon
|
|
|
|
Graham
From:
Marmora, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 15 Feb 2001 1:46 pm
|
|
Bob:
I would have thought that the only welding on a steel would possibly be the end plates. Much stronger than making them out of cast. I mean by that, that the leg blocks would be aluminum welded to the plates. Such is the case with the Fulawka. All other parts are machined.
------------------
Rebel™
ICQ 614585
http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html
|
|
|
|
Bob Brocius
From:
Lake Katrine, NY USA Don't blink, you'll miss it.!
|
Posted 15 Feb 2001 8:56 pm
|
|
Rebel, No. The welds I was looking at were on the Bellcranks. The pieces that the Pedal Rods hook into were welded to the Crossshafts and then filed or grinded down.
Bobby |
|
|
|
Graham
From:
Marmora, Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
|
Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
|
Posted 18 Feb 2001 3:17 am
|
|
There are custom builders who do mediocre work, or who have lousy customer service, or who have an average product. There are also custom builder who do the opposite, who build great guitars and who take care of their customers. Paul Franklin Sr. definitely falls into the latter camp. Paul has built 5 guitars for me over the last 22 years, 4 of which I still own. The instruments haven't needed work very often, but when they have, Paul has made them his highest priority. His guitars are a magical combination of art, mechanics, and Paul's intuition about what will sound good and work good. They will stand up in terms of quality and innovation with instruments like great classical guitars, or archtop guitars.
I guess my point is that simply because a guitar is custom built by a small builder doesn't mean that it will be better than an instrument like a Carter. The reason that Carter can build so many instruments isn't magic: they set out to seperate the design process from the manufacturing process, only designing steels that could be built using an efficient, scalable process.
I personally prefer my Franklin guitars to the Carter, but on the other hand there are many, many hand built custom guitars that can't compare to the Carter on any level.
One way to evaluate the 'quality' of an instrument is to look at the resale value. How much can you get for an older instrument versus the original price, or what you paid for it.
------------------
www.tyacktunes.com |
|
|
|
Andy Alford
|
Posted 29 Sep 2002 4:29 am
|
|
| The bottom line is we should honor the builders of the pedal steels.It is hard work, that is a labor of love.May God bless the pedal steel builders. |
|
|
|
