One guitar better than other

Bill Davison · From: Just far enough away from Seattle, WA, USA

What makes a great steel guitar better than a cheap guitar? What makes it sound better? Is it the person playing it or the amp that's connected to it? Is it the electronics that it's playing thru?

Just a beginer at the PSG and was wondering. I hear some great sounds comming from some of the guitars and sounds the I'm not getting with my Carter..

Larry Jackson · From: Morrilton, AR

Hi Bill

I'm new here, too. But, I'm going to stick my neck out here and say 'all of the above'. I've played guitar most of my life and dobro a while now and I know that a lot of what we admire in other players is in their hands. That is, an expert player can make a 'cheap' PSG sound great. On the other hand, a beginner like me would make a great PSG sound 'cheap' Very Happy

Beyond the 'hands' thing, though, yes, I am sure electronics and amplification are a factor, as well.

You and I both will benefit from what the veterans have to say....

Bill Davison · From: Just far enough away from Seattle, WA, USA

I watch a lot of videos of some of the great PSG players and they really get some great sounds coming from their guitars. I see a lot of electronic gadgets connected to the guitar and amp. Don't have any idea what they are or do. For example, what does a 'steel guitar black box' do? I saw one advertised on the forum and had no idea what it does. I almost bought it anyhow. I would be interested in any input regarding these. You know, I just have to spend some more money and need to know what to spend it on Mr. Green

Curt Trisko · From: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

I'm interested in this question too. I was under the impression that once you get to a certain level of quality, that the price difference after that is mostly attributable to cosmetics or marginally-useful add-ons.

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

First answer. There are very few CHEAP steel guitars. All the major builders produce a quality guitar. A Carter though mass produced is still a very nice guitar and a lot of pros have or still play them.

While not a complete beginner anymore I am as all of us still learning. I have two guitars a 1982 Zum U-12 that's seen some better days. I keep it setup in the house for practice. I have a 2006 Carter U-12 I generally take to rehearsals and gig with.

The guitars have different pickups SC and HB but I play both of them through the same amp, VP, effects etc.

I have to tweak both the EQ on the amp and slightly adjust my technique to get the same or similar tone when switching between guitars.

I think the one common thing all steel players chase is TONE.

So as stated above almost everything comes into play when chasing the elusive tone. It's in the technique when you're a beginner. Also in properly setting the EQ on an appropriate steel guitar amp. If your playing that Carter through a cheap amp you'll never get a good tone.
If you're a complete beginner concentrate on getting the best tone you can with what you have. THen when you get better you'll have a better frame of reference when you start spending money to chase the Tone Goddess.
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Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Carter guitars are top notch guitars and are good enough for anyone to play. Tone comes from so many places. Hands, bar, amp, guitar, resonance of room and on and on. If I were to advise a new steel player, I would say, get a good guitar(which you have) a good steel amp and go for it. Forget about all the black boxes and electronic gizmos at first. Learn to make what you have sound good and then add other stuff later. After 25 years of playing, I very seldom use anything but guitar and amp. Keeps me sharper than a bunch of effects to muddy it down and I need all the help I can get. Very Happy

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Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Some guitars do have better mechanics than others, tighter tolerances, easier adjustment, swappable pickups, firmer pedal stops, etc.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

As a few others have already said, once you have a good guitar and a good amp, the rest is pretty much in the player - how well he plays, and how well he knows his amp. There are scads of pedals, accessories, and EFX out there, but the beginner (that is, one who's been playing a few years or less) would do well to woodshed and concentrate on his technique and playing skills.

All the gizmos and gadgets in the world won't help to get you a job as a steel player - you've got to be able to play.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Bill you should probably get to a steel show if you can, Dallas, St Louis etc... and try the different guitars out, hear other people play them up close and then you will understand why some guitars are just better than others ... budget and experience aside, there is probably two or three hand built guitars which are really cutting edge ... but at the end of the day you will find something that fits you best.
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Bill Davison · From: Just far enough away from Seattle, WA, USA

Well, I think the next thing I need to tackle is a different amp. I'm using an 1960 Gibson tube. It works real well with my 1961 Fender Jazzmaster but not so well with my Carter steel. I understand that there are amps that are made for, or better to use with a PSG. Is that true, and if so what are the amps I should be looking for?

I really appreciate your help and input.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Carter guitars were not "mass produced". Mass produced implies that they maybe had an assembly line going. But what they did do is have a lot of each part made and in stock so they didn't have to wait for their machinist to make them. That is how they were able to offer a 30 day delivery on a standard (s10 3 & 5 or D10 8 & 5). Even with that, I ordered a D10 with 8 pedals and 10 knee levers and got it in just over 30 days.

EDIT: A detail that has not been brought out. Is your Carter a pro model or a Carter Starter?
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Malcolm McMaster · From: Beith Ayrshire Scotland

What Richard said.For some reason some players seem to look down their nose at Carters (pro models) but I really don't know why.As far as I'm concerned any guitar that Bud Carter had anything to do with was top notch.Some may not have liked the Fabians marketing methods but you have to admit it was successful and provided a lot of players with affordable guitars in a reasonable timescale.Carter Starters were a different issue, and while making steel available to beginners at a low price, we're not the greatest, but by no means the worst .Magnums were another marketing strategy by John Fabian to try and get steels into mainstream music stores that normally did not stock steels, or in some cases did not even know what they were.I believe the Starter and Magnum were Johns design.Had the pleasure of sitting next to a player with a Magnum at our local steel night on Tuesday and it sounded great.Yes I think you should look at a more suitable amp, but if only playing at home then what you have should give you a reasonable sound.As has been said previously, look to practice to improve your sound, and get along to your local steel club, or contact local players and speak to them.Keep the Carter.
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Les Cargill · From: Oklahoma City, Ok, USA

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Let's not forget the Webb amp. I have one with an extension speaker and it is hard to beat!

Josh Braun · From: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

For amps, I like a tube Fender of some sort. I've used everything from an old 70s vibrochamp to a super reverb with good results.

My steel of choice is a Fender 400, and it just sounds great through old fender amps. But the pickups aren't as hot as an MSA I used to have - that guy used to push the preamp section too hard to use with smaller amps (without interjecting something like a preamp to tone down the hot signal). FWIW, Greg Leisz uses all kinds of amps to great effect, many of them standard (good) guitar amps, such as princeton reverbs.

Context is king, though. What's usable in the studio or a small club isn't necessarily great for other situations.

Regarding some steels sounding better, etc., I think some of the less gorgeous sounding steels are the student models floating around. The pickups just aren't so nice in some of those (imo). And I think Carter gets mentioned in this context due to their "Carter Starter" steel. But every Shobud Maverick I've heard (so far, mind you) had a "less than impressive" sound. YMMV.

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

I play a Jackson Blackjack Custom, and it's not a student model steel, it's actually a pro model that can be played by any player at any level. Although I play a Jackson, I think there are many great steel guitar brands out there, and they all have great sound, tone, playability. Every steel guitar features something special

Larry Jackson · From: Morrilton, AR

I'm just learning how to play right now and I'm playing through a Fender Acoustasonic Jr. 2x8. It sounds fine right now to learn on.

I do have a couple other amps, though. I have a Fender Deluxe 1x12 that is tube and I think 40 watts.

I also have a 1972 Kustom ( tuck and roll) SA 2x10s. I think it is 100 watts and loud.

Would either of these be better to play through? I'm sure I'll buy a more appropriate steel amp later on.

Ned McIntosh · From: New South Wales, Australia

Mechanical issues aside (e.g. tuning stability, precision of components, care taken in assembly, general quality-control, design elements, scale-length, cabinet-drop, etc, etc, etc), what makes a great steel better than a cheap one very much depends on what "better" actually means. (It also depends on what you mean by a "cheap" steel.)

Is a cheap steel one built to a budget from particle-board, with a poorly-built, flimsy undercarriage and a very limited copedent with no ability to change or modify it, or an old pro-model which has seen better days, needs a complete overhaul but doesn't cost much? Both will likely sound quite different although they may be very similarly priced - "cheap".

Let's assume by cheap you mean a budget-built steel aimed at the raw-beginner market. There have been a few, all E9th machines. Historically, the Sho-Bud Maverick, Emmons "Little Buddy" and MSA "Red Baron" models spring to mind, as does the more recent Carter Starter. Amongst steel-players these might be recognised names, but they are typically not highly-regarded.

In the present, there are what we can call "entry-level" or lightweight steels which are a far cry from their antecedents, with superb build-quality, a modern copedent and lacking nothing in tone compared to their more expensive counterparts. Perhaps the era of the cheap beginner's steel (the dreaded "student-model") has finally passed, and that is a very good thing.

All other things being equal, an old, cheap "student-model" steel will probably have a thinner sound, less sustain and probably lacking the usual overtones or harmonics. The rich complexity, which gives the distinctive full-bodied sound, will not be there. The bell-like highs, rich mids and "growly" bass which are the hallmark of steel-guitar won't be readily apparent - or if they are then they won't have that certain balance needed to produce the unmistakable steel-guitar sound. String-separation and clarity might also be lacking. It's a combination of the cabinet, mechanism and pickup, and all were built down to a price.

Now, put a cheap steel against a pro-model and play both yourself. You'll probably hear a difference, depending on your ability. But...and this is a big but...let a top-grade steel-player play them side by side and the difference may be far less obvious. An experienced player knows how to get tone from a steel...hand-position, picking-force, where the strings are picked relative to the pickup, bar-pressure, vibrato all make a big difference. So much tone is in the hands, head and heart of the player!

By the way, this idea of cheap steels sounding thin is not an absolute either. There are Sho-Bud Mavericks in particular which have great tone even though they were budget-built and aimed squarely at the student market. Through the forum I know of at least one which was totally re-worked and became a very fine pro-level steel- a truly lightweight S10 3X4 steel-guitar. Another forum-member completely re-worked a "Red Baron" and totally transformed it. Time - and money - can achieve quite a bit, if you have the inclination.

The sound of a steel is one thing, the feel of a steel is quite another. "Feel" is highly valued by all experienced players. If it doesn't feel right for you, how are you going to be able to play it well?

Pedal-pressure and travel, knee-lever throw and return pressure, clearance between your body and the steel are all parts of "feel". You get so used to the feel of your steel it becomes an extension of you. Play someone else's steel and instantly the feel is "different". Not wrong, just different. Play a cheap steel, then play a pro-model and see how different they each feel, and you'll soon decide which is "better".

Obviously feel comes down to the mechanical build-quality and the design of components. Flimsy or flexible levers, badly-designed bellcranks, poorly-installed rods etc with weak mounting-brackets screwed directly into a wooden cabinet will feel spongy compared to robust, well-designed parts assembled in a precision undercarriage with support-rails, bushes, roller-bearings and so on. Sophistication in build-quality costs money - and adds weight. It usually feels "better", even though feel is subjective.

Steel-guitar manufacture these days benefits from the advances brought about by CNC machining and modern materials and fabrication techniques. The old days of a man working in a basement making parts by hand with a file and an electric-hand-drill are pretty much over, even though some truly great steels were the result.

It is now essentially a boutique industry. There is a greater choice of makers today than forty odd years ago when the student-models first came along. The quality is amazing, no matter which maker's product you choose to invest in. Do they sound better than the best steels made forty or fifty years ago? Depends on the player. Do extra gadgets (pre-amplifiers, outboard delay and reverb units, impedance-matching devices etc) really make a steel sound better? Again, it depends on the player.

Sometimes it helps me to rationalise the price of something when I remember the following:- "buying quality is like buying oats. If you want good quality oats then you have to pay what the market asks. If you'll settle for the oats after they've passed through the horse...well, that's cheaper!"
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The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Bill,

Buddy recorded on a Carter and had great tone! Trust me there is tone in it waiting to be brought out and it is up to you through trial and error to figure out how to bring that tone out. You can make pretty much any guitar sound good, now that being you may catch a fever called "tone chasing". Thi may be an expensive illness for you but rest assured, it will work itself out in the end that no matter what guitar you play be it an Emmons or Zum or MSA sidekick. Its up to you with youre hands to bring "out" the tone.

Examples of players with simple setups and great tone.

John Hugey
Dckey Overbie
Buddy
Jimmy Day
Curly Chalker

The list goes on and on
Carter guitars are still highly regarded today so keep it going!

Stephen Cordingley · From: Ontario, Canada

Here's my suggestion: Get the best player you can find to play YOUR PSG. If they can make it sound heavenly, it's not the guitar that's lacking...

Of course, an experienced player can also give you good feedback on your guitar's mechanical condition and setup.

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Try the Deluxe - that actually is an amp used by many players for small club gigs. It will complement the steel perfectly. And it is tubes, a warmer sound than the Acoustonic
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Bill Davison · From: Just far enough away from Seattle, WA, USA

I think that a lot of it is in the playing/player. I know that certain songs I play sound much better than other ones. The songs that sound good are the ones that I've practiced a lot and I'm comfortable playing.

I can see that there is a lot to learn about this beast called the PSG and I'm having a blast learning.. Thanks for all you're help in this journy.

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