C6th: The Cop-out Neck

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

quote:
I meant Es flatted not sharped! Sorry.
AB pedals down by releasing B

Don't get it. Which strings? Which pulls?

Either major triad?!? What’s hard to understand about that?
Fret 3: A pedal only= Cmaj7

There's no tonic in any of these applications. Your basic C Major7 from bottom up is C,E,G,B. Can you play this anywhere on E9 with a workable grip? You can do it in two places on C6. And I know you can leave out the tonic if the bass player plays a C note, but that isn't the point. The point is to see what you can do, before you start leaving stuff off.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

There are jazz chords all over the E9th neck, but they are laid out a lot more logically on the C6th neck.

Also, if you use just intonation (or meantone) on the E9th, some of the jazz chord positions won't be in tune. Having a second neck that specializes makes a lot of sense if you play songs with jazz chords very often.

I'm moving this post to the 'Pedal Steel' section.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

I've read some intelligent comments on this thread, but they seem to be from the perspectives of D-10 vs. S-10 players, for the most part. I have to agree with b0b, and
lean toward his expertise, because I'm equally at home with a D-10,S-10,D-12,S-12, or a S12U. You see, once you really explore a variety of tunings & pedal setups, you discover that they all have their share of weaknesses and strong points. These run the gamut from the fine points of tuning, to the different guages of strings that they require. Example: the low B on a S-12U E9/B6
universal really gets in my way, whereas the low C on a C6 tuning seems to blend in just fine. Logically, it shouldn't matter, but...

Some of you are obviously content with a minimal setup, whereas others ( like me )are constantly seeking for that magic that comes from discovering something new. I take it wherever I find it. Whether it be on a 8-string E-13 w/no pedals or on a D-12 with Tom Morrels' mega-tunings. Let us all remember that it's all about self-expression
and conveyance of the same to others, through an almost intangible medium. Oh, I hate it when I get carried away like this!
W.C.

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

W.C.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

quote:
remember that it's all about self-expression
and conveyance of the same to others

IMO, that's only partially correct. It's a combination of self-expression AND adherence to some sort of standard that defines the boundaries of what you are doing. For a simplistic example, no matter how much self-expression you want, you probably don't want to play an Eb chord over the Em chord in "Rocky Top". While you may actually like it, virtually no one else will. So therefore it's clear that there are still physical boundaries that prevent a total freedom of self-expression. So the question is, what should define those boundaries? Clearly you don't want to play Eb over Em. But do you want to play E9 over the changes to "Body and Soul". Of course, you can find pleasant enough changes to play. But to a sophiticated jazz admirer, will it work? Do you have enough dominant 7 flexibility with alterations and extensions? Can you find dissonances when you need them? See what I mean. I think you need to understand the boundaries. Of course, you can make the argument that the icons never needed to know boundaries, they made the boundaries. But unless you think you're an icon in progress, I believe in knowing what can, can't, should, or shouldn't be done. Now how's THAT for starting a debate!!

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Now that this appears to be moving toward civility I'll come out of my fallout shelter.

Jeff,
I don't really know what 'playing E9' means. If you mean cliches that are easy to play by virtue of how the strings and pedals lay, that's an artificial limit. I think in terms of playing music rather than playing a tuning. Some music is more easily played on a particular tuning -- I mean if you want to play a major scale, what's easier than a diatonic tuning? Since I only play one tuning, it's a moot point for me, but I really do identify with the C6 sounds and find that those scale tones and changes work well for a lot of stuff I hear in my head. Same is true for E9. I just like having it all there at one time -- preferably on the same neck. It's what works for me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 04 September 2002 at 12:40 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Yeah Larry, sorry about some of the insanity, but I can't guarantee it won't happen again, so keep the beans and cot warm in your fallout shelter. I'm still waiting to find out from Marty which simply-gripped, fully voiced Major 7 chords are available in E9 before trying to tackle anything else. If there aren't any, I'm willing to put that part of this thread to bed. I was giving up earlier, but then I felt it would be considered a surrender, and I didn't want to do that, so I'm waiting for those Major 7ths. If Marty finds 'em, I then go for the 5 qualities of 7th chord (I can play a fully voiced 7b5 in 4 places off the top of my head, with easy grips/sweeps). Then it's the dominant 7th altered stuff, combining all sorts of b9,#9,#11,b13 in different combos. I can play a full "alt" chord on C6, combining all 4 altered notes. This chord appears quite often in fake books, and I'd like to see how it gets done in E9. But first, the basic Major 7.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

When a song calls for Maj7 chords, I usually start by anchoring my thumb on the 9th string instead of the 8th. With pedals down, that's a DMaj7 at the nut.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

b0b,
I know you can do that. But if you sweep it, you get the 9th note (E), which makes for a densely, voiced sound which I might selectively use, but not make it a staple. In order to play just the 4 notes (D,F#,A,C#), you need an unusual grip requiring 4 fingers, or a sweeping motion with your top 2 fingers that avoids the E note. Either way, IMO, it is way too involved for playing something so basic (basic for jazz, that is). On C6, you can play D Maj7 at fret 2 (pedal 7, strings 7,6,5,4)and fret 9 (no pedals, strings 9,8,7,6) with simple sweeps of the 4 consecutive notes. Just to restate the point of this, I'm not trying to deny that you can play jazz on E9. I'm refuting the idea that you don't need C6, which was the topic (as silly as it is). I'm still interested in seeing what Marty has to say about it.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 September 2002 at 02:49 PM.]

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Get a Uni and have both arguements on one neck

Dennis

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Jeff,

What type of ensembles have you been playing with and where have you been playing where there is a need for all those fully voiced chords coming from the steel ?

Marty,
The Norah Jones thing is no big deal. She was real busy in the downtown jazzish scene for a couple years before she hit. First time I heard her she was singing a little harmony at a bar I was playing at. What a sound she has coming out of her ! She could sing the phone book and make you cry.
Her piano playing is frightening. She will be comping along and then for yucks she will play one chorus like Erol Garner and the next one like Bill Evans.

Bob

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Is there an E9th equivalent of this chart that is posted in the Tablature section? http://dogriverpub.com/trap/chords.pdf

It might come in handy here.

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 04 September 2002 at 04:03 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 September 2002 at 04:23 PM.]

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I'm with you on the sweeps, b0b. I also rarely use them, mostly because they aren't there on my modified C6th, because it has a D in the middle. If I felt a huge desire to play 4 note voicings, I would make a more serious attempt to use 4 picks. I do love western swing playing, but for the jazz gigs I do playing the typical C6th voicings (the big sweeps with the voicings that easily lie on the instrument) simply wouldn't fit. When I started working with a few heavy players here I would try to impress with my hot steel guitar 'jazz' licks, and they seemed to like it when I got on the E9th, or just played something simpler on the C6th.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Jeff,
I understand the theory of what you are are saying. I am way into the theoretical aspects of music. My question about where you use these voicings is to establish a practical application for your theories.
If you put yourself in the line of fire at the bars and clubs I think you will find that Dan's experience is more like what is really going on.
In my opinion there is a place for theory without application and it is very valuable to know that stuff. But I feel that it needs to be clarified that it might not apply to an actual playing situation.

As an aside, the most happening REAL jazz slide player in town is named Dave Tronzo. He can play bop with anybody and just plays a plain old bottleneck slide guitar. The guy is a monster !

Bob

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Right. And Jerry Douglas can jam with the best of them on a 6-string dobro! Jazz musicians aren't all that concerned about what tuning you use. If you can understand the music and play parts that work, it really doesn't matter what instrument you use.

But with that said, it's a lot easier to play jazz parts on a tuning like the C6th. The chord positions and pockets are easier to find than on E9th.

I totally disagree with Marty's bait, though.

Marty Pollard · Posted 5 Sep 2002 11:08 am

Well we posted at the same time.
You said: "lot easier"
So's the kazoo, should we all take that up instead?
As I said in premise: I goofed on a C neck at the convention but to find out more about my position, read on...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The biggest real limitation of the E9th is its range. The 10th string B just isn't low enough for a lot of the things I do.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I gotta do some serious posting here, so I'll start by responding to Marty. Basically, you couldn't counter my point about limitations of the voicing of a very basic Major 7 chord. Since you couldn't, you basically said you don't have to. If your answer to having very limited ability to play a simple, basic, and very fundamental Major 7 is "leave out the root", then we have nothing further to debate. After two days of trying to nail this jello to the wall, I'm going to go no further on the initial topic of exploring the obvious advantages of using C6 to play jazz. I'll continue later this evening with some other responses. Regards. .. Jeff

bob grossman · From: Visalia CA USA

OK, here goes....

I'm not a gambler, but if the government outlawed double neck guitars, the "greats" would opt for C6...or some other 6th tuning..not E9.

You newer ones who never played a non-pedal steel, would opt for E9.

Right? And don't attack me personally.

Paul Franklin said on one of his early tapes which I have: C6 in more "melodic" than E9, and to me it makes much better musical sense.

Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

Guess I'll stir the pot just a bit more.
Buddy Emmons said "There is a lot of C6th
in the E9th tuning." Buddy is right, but
I still love both tunings,and E13, and Bb6,
and D6th, and D diatonic 7th ...
W.C.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

A thought about what theory is. My belief is that people played music, and theory evolved, not the other way around. People played things, and they created certain musical dynamics, certain qualities, flavors, colors, what have you. In order to be able to organize, categorize, and communicate the concepts of those sounds, they created theories, which are nothing more than identifying musical dynamcs, qualities, colors, etc. so that other players understand. So when someone says "play a D Dorian", it's a lot easier than "play the C major scale that sounds real good over a Dm7 chord". That's what theory is - communicating these musical concepts in common language and thinking patterns that everyone (who knows theory) will get. Therefore if you don't know theory, you shortchange yourself, because you don't know certain types of colors and dynamics, and so on that other people know and use. It's as if you didn't know to include an F note on a G7, and all you could play was G, while everyone else played G7. You'd be shortchanged. Well most everyone knows how to play a G7, even if they don't know it as a dominant 7. But if you want to communicate the concept of a dominant 7 to someone, it sure would be helpful to be able to say "dominant 7", because then you have described a musical quality that everyone will understand. That's what theory gives us. I have no doubt that a lot can be played without knowing theory, but there is infinitely more and more interesting stuff than can be played if you know it. Ok, I guess I'll get off the soapbox.

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