Brass Rollers - How do they affect the sound?

Geoff Noble · From: Scotland

Hi,

I have a Carter u12 and I'm thinking of getting a set of gauged brass rollers for it.

My concern is that this will affect the sound to some degree compared to the Aluminium rollers currently on it.

I know that when I use brass picks compared to steel picks the sound is more mellow, i.e. less bright, and I would imagine that brass rollers would have a similar effect on the tone.

My question is, to what extent do they change the tone? I like the tone I am currently getting but could live with it being less bright as long as it wasn't too much.

Anyone with any experience of this.

TIA

Geoff
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Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Well I will jump on in with my tiny thought. I personally do not like brass rollers.They seemed to have a slightly muted sound versus Aluminum. I also felt the sustain wasn't as good as Aluminum.

As I said,just my thoughts.
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Geoff Noble · From: Scotland

Thanks for your reply Dick, it sort of confirms what I suspected. Having gauged rollers would certainly make playing a lot easier on the 12 string, but I don't want to lose the sound and sustain I currently have.

I guess my second question is, is there anyone out there who makes gauged Aluminium rollers?
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Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

I think Bill Rudolph at Williams guitar would sell you a set. They are standard on his guitars.
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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Don Burrows at BSG also sells them.

I asked Jeff Surratt at Dallas if there was any difference between brass and aluminium rollers. He didn't think there was. I have brass roller nuts on two of my guitars. One has wonderful tone, and the other doesn't. Go figure. Sad

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Chris Johnson · From: USA

I did the swap on my Carter s-10. Brass rollers definitely had more presence for sure but lost quite a bit of warmth. I went back to aluminum and settled with them

John Roche · From: England

It can't make any difference , unless you play open strings all the time. once you place your bar on the strings it is no longer matters.

Geoff Noble · From: Scotland

Thanks everyone for your replies.

That's a good point John, never really thought about it like that.

Thing is, I really like the sound as is, so I'm hesitant to do anything which "might" change it. Opinion seems to vary on whether it makes a difference or not, so I'm probably going to err on the side of caution and go for a set of Aluminium rollers.

I contacted Don Burrows at BSG and his opinion is that brass gives a better tone but is willing to make me a set of Aluminium rollers, so I'll probably just go for that.

Thanks again for your advice folks Smile

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Johan Jansen · From: Europe

On my WBS I decided for a brass changer and brass rollers. I LOVE the sound! Its very different from aluminum, but it is my choice... Smile

JJ

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I am certain that the rollers on my guitar are steel, although I don't intend to remove any to check. Why has no-one mentioned this material? Ironical.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

It would be helpful for me if there wasn't conflicting info on whether brass makes the tone duller or sharper than aluminum...

If there was a consensus on that issue, you could pick the metal based on whether you think the guitar needed to be warmer or brighter.

I would expect, however, that brass is denser than aluminum, and for its purpose,I would expect that denser would perhaps be better for improved sustain, etc.

If Ian is correct, I'd think I'd take steel over either of these.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Steel is very nearly as dense as brass, and it's the hardest of the three.
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Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

A friend of mine worked for Semi Moseley in the eighties when Moserite was in NC. Semi and Mike ran some very detailed trials on guitar bridge material, mild steel, brass/bronze, aluminum, and stainless steel. They made nuts and bridges of the various materials and ran trails. They made recordings and had different people playing. The way the materials were rated as to the best tone and sustain were; mild steel, aluminum, brass, bronze, and stainless steel, in that order, and stainless steel was the absolute worst of all the materials.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Great to have some proper research. I'm surprised that aluminium did so well, but not that mild steel was favourite.
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Darrell Birtcher · Posted 19 Mar 2014 6:21 am

Bill Lawrence told me once that brass was an awful material for guitar nuts. This was in the 80's when brass was getting very popular amongst guitar players as a replacement for bone.
He said it was bad because it typically has so much lead in it.

In my own rather crude tests on lap steels I found aluminum to be brighter than brass but it tends to be kind of harsh and shrill.
I also tried stainless and found it to work fine, offering a nice sound in between aluminum and brass, but is difficult to work. Maybe the higher density of brass (vs aluminum) dampens out the higher harmonics in a way that is more pleasing to my ear. I wish now that I had tried plain steel.

FWIW....

Darrell Birtcher · Posted 19 Mar 2014 6:22 am

Darrell Birtcher · Posted 19 Mar 2014 6:23 am

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

One test that I did some 40 years ago when I was using a ZB guitar was to remove the stainless steel changer roller caps and replace them with aluminum caps that Tom Brumley sent over. I couldn't hear a scrap of difference, and my hearing was very sharp then.

I think that changeable changer roller caps is a great idea and overcomes the problem of grooves in the rollers very simply and quickly. One of Zane Beck's better ideas.
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Will Cowell · From: Cambridgeshire, UK

Strange that so many speak highly of aluminium as a bridge or nut roller. Apart from its being so soft, I mean, that's a drawback that can't really be denied.

I used to use a Curnow steel, built here in the UK by Bernie Curnow. Some lovely touches in the build, but oh boy, there was little life above fret 12 in terms of timbre or sustain.

I appreciate there may be other factors at play here, I don't really know what they may be - possibly the way the fretboard is attached, or what it's made of, but this is just my 2c worth.

And let's remember Bent Romnes's guitars get rave reviews about their tone and sustain - always with brass rollers and changer fingers.
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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

When comparing materials it's a good idea to remember that there are so many variables in metals. Just in alloys alone whether it be steel, aluminum, brass or stainless, there can be big differences. Just saying stainless can cover a wide range of materials. Then when you try to decide what is good tone, you can really start chasing rabbits.
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Geoff Noble · From: Scotland

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

This discussion has involved mainly tone changes involving a guitar's nut. Here's some experience with roller bridges:

In the 1960's I bought a new Sierra, built by Chuck Wright. It had a changer that required a separate bridge. That bridge had aluminum rollers. I was hardly a sophisticated enough player to be critical of tone, but got the bright idea that my tone would be improved if I changed to steel rollers. I hired a machinist to make them. Once installed, much to my surprise I discovered that the guitar's tone was dull and lacked sustain. I put the aluminum rollers back on and got my tone and sustain back.

This doesn't prove that aluminum is better than steel, but it is just one incident that supports aluminum for a bridge. But to continue...

I'm currently installing ball bearing nut rollers on an MSA S-12 "Classic" model steel. The owner had replaced his stainless steel nut rollers with gauged aluminum rollers. He claims the tone was much improved after he installed the aluminum rollers. I believe his appreciation of tone is valid. However, he has the additional problem with hysteresis (only on the 6th string). I believe a ball bearing nut roller on that string will solve his problem.

But, I also want to determine if his tone will be changed by replacing that aluminum gauged roller with an aluminum gauged ball bearing nut roller. In addition, I plan to add ball bearing nut rollers to his 4th, 5th and 6th strings. With these strings providing a major triad in both the E and A chords, this should be convincing as to a change (or no change) in the tone of those strings when compared to the other 9 strings he has on his MSA. We'll see, as well as determine if the ball bearing nut roller fixes his hysteresis problem. I'll report back on this in a few weeks. ...Tom

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

That sounds like a great project...may become a great sideline manufacturing venture, too...

Does anyone think that the less dense materials may allow more vibration to make it thru to the keyhead? I would have thought denser materials would make the string vibrate more 'pure'...perhaps more sustain...kind of like the arguments between keyless and keyhead guitars.

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