How much cabinet drop?

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

I have been thinking about adding more pedals and knee levers to my guitar (3 and 2). What is stopping me from doing that is the amount of cabinet drop I get with the AB pedals. I don't want to invest a lot of money to end up with a guitar I am not happy with. The alternative is buying another guitar (new or used) that has the pedal configuration I am looking for. But, again, I don't want to end up with a guitar I will not be happy with. There have been several posts that talked about cabinet drop. Has anyone quantified the amount of cabinet drop for currently available guitars? I would like to see cent tuning deflection comparisons along with string guage for ten, twelve, and D10 guitars. How about if people who have recorded the deflection on their guitars post it? I think we could collect a lot of information in a short period of time if just a small fraction of the steel guitarists did this. I am looking specifically for the low E on the E9th when AB are depressed to pitch. It is important to pedal only enough to get the strings to pitch. More pedal can increase cabinet drop. Anyone interested in this problem?

Karlis

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Karlis,
I am VERY interested in this problem. I have been working with Jerry Fessenden and I know that he, Jim Smith, and many others have been studying the factors that relate to detuning. Rather than the low E, which has a .014" core and is not as sensitive to deflection as a larger string, I would propose that the unwound 6th (usually .020-.024") or the 5th (.017 or .018) be used. In my meager little experiments, I've found that on some guitars the 6th will drop substantially just by depressing the A pedal and the 5th just by depressing the B pedal. I don't believe it is related to how many pedals are on the guitar, but am convinced it CAN be caused by several factors, including cabinet flex, axle flex, and cross shaft flex. I'm sure there are others. Some brands have a much more pronounced problem than others.

It would be very informative to poll Forum members in a consistent manner, for the E9 neck or a universal guitar, to determine:
BRAND/YEAR(if known)
WOOD or METAL NECK(s)
SINGLE or DOUBLE BODY
# of STRINGS
# of PEDALS and LEVERS
GAUGE of 4th 5th and 6th(specify wound/unwound)
DEFLECTION OF 4th w/A+B pressed
DEFLECTION OF 5th w/B pressed
DEFLECTION OF 6th w/A pressed

That's what I would like to see for as many brands, makes, models, configurations as possible. Any suggestions on whether this experimental design is appropriate and HOW to tabularize the results?

I think this could really help the builders -- I'm sure Jerry, for one, would be interested.

It only takes 5 min or less to tune the three strings to 0 on the tuner, the press the appropriate pedals and take a reading.

Anyone interested?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 June 2002 at 07:56 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

My U-12 PSG has so much cabinet drop, it has caused me grave dissapointment. Without compensators, I don't like to play it.

NOW, before I leave this thread, I must make it very clear. MY cabinet drop is NOT the manufacturer's fault. I am sure his standard guitar has much less, if at all, than mine. I am the one that had him make over 30 changes to this guitar. And some were major.

So I take 100% full responsibility for my dilemma. Also, the sound is not what I wanted. Again this is my fault, because of the most major and radical changes I asked him to make.

Which he was sooooo very gracious in doing. When one makes their bed, they have to lie in it.

I am doing just that. And, I accept it.

Having said all the above, I STILL love this guitar, because it is the only guitar in the world that has a 5 raise and 5 lower chanber that does NOT break strings.

Plus, the copedent I came up with after 40 yrs of futile attempts is THE perfect tuning for my tastes.

So we live and we learn.

Is it not wonderful that our precious Jesus gave us a brain and logic; and freedom of choice, so we could live and learn?

Praise His holy name, and may he richly bless each of you,

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Are you sure it's CABINET drop, Carl?

How much is SO MUCH?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

On my Sho~Bud Pro II.....A&B pedals down...I have a 5 cent drop on the High(4th string) E note. That is also the same drop for other inharent pedals or Knee levers that cause this.
Ricky

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 19 June 2002 at 10:20 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Which E note?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well Larry,

Let's see. If I hook up a tuner on my guitar and press the A Pedal, the 6th sring drops almost (not quite) 10 full cents, without compensation.

I would say that is a "Lot!"

take care friend,

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I think what Ricky is describing is common. Most guitars detune 2-5 cents on the E. One of my guitars does this and is perfectly acceptable.

Like Carl, I have one that detunes slightly MORE than 10 cents on the 6th string when I hit the A pedal. THIS IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. If I tune the 6th 5-10 cents flat already, I run into problems tuning the F lever (3rd scale tone for the C# major chord with A+F) and the C# minor chord with just the A pedal. Unlike Carl, I don't have a 5R/5L changer and can't afford to put a raise compensator on the A pedal without sacrificing other changes. My F lever ends up more than 25 cents flat and the open E chord and C#m chord can never be perfectly in tune.

I honestly believe that there's a design problem and exactly WHAT that problem is may vary among different brands. I still think that understanding WHICH brands do WHAT and inspecting how the neck is mfgd and mounted, the changer axle and mounting, cross shaft flex, and other design elements might help us (and the builders) solve this problem. I've always thought it seems worse on 12 strings versus 10 strings, but have no experimental evidence to prove it.

While it's true that the 6th is the biggest offender and using a wound 6th will minimize the problem, I need to lower the 6th a whole step. Some guitars won't do that with a wound sixth and most require such a long throw that it becomes uncomfortable to play -- especially on a knee lever.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 June 2002 at 09:53 AM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I don't know why, but my D-12 Dekley has no audible or visual drop that can be seen on a tuner.

However the strings are over one year old.

I'm sure I remember measuring some drop 20+ years ago when it was new.

Once my gigs slow down I plan to partly disassemble it to make some changes, at which time I'll put some new strings on and try it again.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Darn you, Jim -- you're no help at all.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Karry,

I could not agree with you more. The following is NOT going to win me any bouquets from the manufacturer's. But for one of them at least (after the way she treated me last week on the phone), I do NOT care! and the others, I will state my opinion about it.

"Cabinet drop" (not my guitar-it's MY fault) is absurd to have to live with. It, along with some other anamolies should have LONG since been eliminated.

It is ridiculous for us to have to fight it; what with all the other problems we fight trying to play it. In a word, the "root cause" should have been identified and a permanent cure installed on every guitar out there.

Cabinet drop, hysterisis, string breakage and the tops of the strings not being 100% flat at the first fret has LONG since NEEDED to be corrected. I for one, would gladly forgo a "highly polished end plate, or a two toned cabinet color, if that expense would have gone into R & D, towards finding and curing solutions to long standing problems; our beloved instrument has had since day one.

One thing you can take to the bank. IF, Boeing aircraft or a Japanese auto maker, etc, etc, were manufaturing PSG's, the above problems would NOT exist today!

My opinions of course.

carl

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Jerry Fessenden is working very hard to figure out just what causes "cabinet drop". Believe it or not, what we thought was causing it doesn't seem to be the case. We need to figure out what causes it before he can attempt to fix it.

True hysterisis is a physical property of the string. All one can do without compensators is to reduce any extraneous friction that might amplify the effect.

String breakage is partly a physical property of the metal used to make the string and partly the angle of pull. Today's manufacturing techniques for strings are much better than in the past and the newer type changers of Anapeg, Williams, and from the pictures I've seen, MSA as well, are attacking the angle problem.

A few manufacturers provide and/or will custom make gauged roller nuts to help keep the tops of the strings flat, but as soon as you change the gauge of one string, you're right back where you started. The only way I can think of to ensure this, is to route the strings UNDER roller nuts of equal diameter. Whether this is feasible from a design and manufacturing standpoint, I don't have a clue.

richard burton · From: Britain

Carl,
If I were you, get rid of your steel. In the past, I had a steel with insurmountable cabinet drop. I hated to do it, but I sold it. Guess what? I've never regretted selling it, I found another one pretty quickly, which is a much more stable guitar.Perhaps your problems are multiplied because of your tuning and what your asking the steel to do.
Respectfully, Richard.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Respectfully, Richard, I think that position is a total cop-out. Like, "Doc, it hurts when I do this". And the doc responds, "Don't do that".

I'm much more inclined to systematically studying it, learning from the data, and making the results known to those building and using the pedal steel guitars. Brushing the dust under the rug only creates lumps in the long run.

Just my opinion.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Richard,

Thanks for your advice. And under any other circumstances I WOULD have done just that. BUt there is MORE to the story.

My guitar was and is the culmination of over 40 years of dreaming about the PSG. The problems I live with are minor in comparison to what I had Mitsuo Fuji of Excel build me.

I WILL find the cause of the cabinet drop and I will fix it for good. This goes for the strings NOT being flat at the nut as well.

As far as hysterisis is concerned, the root caue is NOT the string. Keyless guitars exhibit little if any of it. That was their original reason for being.

Yes, compensators can be installed to cure some of the anamolies. Not all of them.

Cabinet drop, or whatever is causing it, has NEVER to me been explained to my satisfaction. I concede that the LeGrande III DOES stop it cold dead in its tracks. But like my dear friend Johnny Cox said,

"it is at best, a crowbar" and it is. But as my dear friend Buddy Emmons said,

"The LeGrande III does what it was designed to do!"

As far as string breakage, there IS a 100% cure for this (excluding defective strings when put on). Both Anapeg and Excel (Super B models) have SOLVED this problem. They simply do NOT break them. and this is NOT just my opinion. I can prove this!

The nut roller dilemma problem is a two fold aggravation. One is the fact that NO one offers it as original equipment. Two, varying string gauge defeats it.

There IS, however a way to solve both problems once and for all. All they have to do is make EACH nut roller a separate aluminum device whereby it can (from the TOP) of the guitar, individually be adjusted for each string.

The best PSG repairman I have EVER known and I talked about this at length and came up with a way (on paper) to do this. Unfortunately his health prevented us from bringing it to fruition.

If, the Lord is willin and "the creek don rise", I am going to build an adjustable (up and down) nut roller before I die and put it on this guitar.

And no, my cabinet drop problems are NOT due to my tuning. IF I removed every pedal, knee lever and rod, etc, except for the A pedal, I would STILL have the same amount of drop on the 6th string when this pedal is pressed.

Finally, the reason I would never get rid of this guitar is because it is the ONLY guitar in the world, that affords me the luxury of installing my future "auto-matic switchovers" to satisfy my dream of having a single tunging with EVERY change known to date with NO additional "standard" pedals and/or knee levers.

My sincere love and appreciation to Mitsuo for building this guitar so I could live out my dream desires. Only time will tell if I succeed. But even if I don't, I have loved the ride.

Appreciate any and all comments.

Love you all. God bless you,

carl

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

on 4th string with A&B 2 cents
on 5th string with B between 1 and 2 cents
on 6th string with A between 1 and 2 cents

Sho-Bud Pro III Custom D10 metal necks 8 + 5.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Carl, maybe my hysterisis terminology was a little off. It happens due to the length of string between the changer and nut, and the length between the nut and tuning key being under different tensions when the pitch changes. Granted, keyless guitars don't have this problem. Isn't your guitar keyless? If so, you can scratch that one off your list. You say your guitar doesn't break strings, so you have already "solved" 50% of the problems!

Marco, those are great numbers for a Sho-Bud, are you sure you're measuring in cents and not cycles?

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

OK, you can take the decimal place with a grain of salt, but I did this with a digital strobe tuner, so I think the results are ~accurate. They're repeatable, anyway.

All guitars have metal necks and the string gauges on all are 014, 017, and 020p for all. The Franklin and Fessy have nickel wound and the Emmons has stainless.



		Franklin   Fessenden	Emmons	


		D10 mica   D10 lacquer	D10 mica (bolt-on)


-------------------------------------------------------------------


4th stg. w/AB	5.1cents     4.4	  3.0


5th stg. w/B	4.5	     4.6	  2.5


6th stg. w/A	4.0	     5.5	  3.3				


8th stg. w/AB	5.7	     4.0          3.5

And the winner is.........

Send me your gutars, and I will be happy to check them.

[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 19 June 2002 at 04:56 PM.]

Sam White · From: Coventry, RI 02816

HI iif I tune my steel and then hit the A &B pedals then let off and play the string again it will be off 3 or four cents then I tune it again you can hit the pedals all day long and they don't drop is that what cabinet drop is. I think what is hppening is that the string streches after you tune the first time and then tune again after you hit the pedals.My Fessy Will stay tuned for a week or so and I practice 2 to 3 times a day. Ihave a set of Cobra Coils onthere that have been on that steel for over a year and i will not change them as if I do the 3rd will break a couple of times and I have not broken a 3rd in over a year.
Sam White

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The last time I checked my old D10 MSA, cabinet drop was less than 3 cents. Drop on my Emmons p/p was about 4 cents. Neither of these is significant enough to notice.

If your guitar has a 10-cent drop, I'd just get another guitar. Should be easy to find a good used one that already has the number of pedals you need.

Karlis Abolins · From: (near) Seattle, WA, USA

I am going to summarize what has been posted do far. Some of the responses didn't specify string guage. Some didn't specify which strings were measured.

BRAND/YEAR(if known)
WOOD or METAL NECK(s)
SINGLE or DOUBLE BODY
# of STRINGS
# of PEDALS and LEVERS
GAUGE of 4th 5th and 6th(specify wound/unwound)
DEFLECTION OF 4th w/A+B pressed
DEFLECTION OF 5th w/B pressed
DEFLECTION OF 6th w/A pressed
***
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom D10 metal necks 8 + 5.

on 4th string with A&B 2 cents
on 5th string with B between 1 and 2 cents
on 6th string with A between 1 and 2 cents



***


14, 17, 20P


		Franklin   Fessenden	Emmons	


		D10 mica   D10 lacquer	D10 mica (bolt-on)


-------------------------------------------------------------------


4th stg. w/AB	5.1cents     4.4	  3.0


5th stg. w/B	4.5	     4.6	  2.5


6th stg. w/A	4.0	     5.5	  3.3				


8th stg. w/AB	5.7	     4.0          3.5





***


The last time I checked my old D10 MSA, cabinet drop was less than 3 cents. 


Drop on my Emmons p/p was about 4 cents.





***


LoneStar Texas Special (1998?)


10 strings, 3P, 2K


13, 17, 20P





4th stg. w/AB	14 cents


5th stg. w/B	10


6th stg. w/A	21


8th stg. w/AB	12

[This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 19 June 2002 at 07:37 PM.]

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Checked my Bagget Custom - It's a U12, 6th is non-wound. In each instance the cabinet drop was less than 2 cents. Axe is made of African Purpleheart (a very hard hardwood). Strings are old - I don't play out anymore so usually only change them when they break - or when they get so dull sounding even I can stand them no longer - these (except for the 1st and 3rd, which I have broken since I last put on a set) are about 2 years old - I play 2-3 hours every day.

Gil Berry · From: Westminster, CA, USA

Oh, yea, forgot to mention - this guitar does not have a changer axle. Each changer finger pivots on a casting (changer looks kinda like an older Emmons) also - the guitar does not have (and, obviously does not need - compensators).

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Hey Earnest; I fixed my post on which E note you were askin' about.
All pedal steels will have a drop if they have an axle that the fingers are on. Now how it is supported between fingers, will determine just how much. Some guitars are more some are less and some have anti device and some have compensators.
But the Gil Berry's pedal steel solves the prob.....and anyone building a Pedal steel with single moving changer fingers and each one supported soundly and individually....will solve the problem too.
Now if you can remove your axle.....then swap it out for a titanium axle and you will reduce your drop dramatically.
Have fun.
Ricky

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Steve, what kind of tuner are you using that is accurate to less than 1 cent? Amazing!

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