Sho -Bud changer problem

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

I have a Sho-Bud Pro III custom, made in the mid to late 70's. It has the nylon tuners at the endplate but has the 'welded parts' underneath the guitar and the the puller rods are secured by discs on the puller fingers. Each puller finger has 2 holes for discs. This steel has a double raise, double lower changer. It (or 'she'), I believe was made just at then end of this 'parts era', just before the modular Super Pro parts started being used.

Here's my problem. I cannot get my Eb-2nd string on the E9 neck to lower a whole step to C#. That does not seem right to me. It seems to me that this changer should be able to raise or lower any string a whole step. What do I need to check here? I believe I'm using a very typical gauge of string, although I will try a heavier one. Could I have a fatigued spring somewhere? I've increased the lever travel sufficiently but as the note lowers and approaches C#, it then starts to go sharp! I appreciate all of your expertise and advice here.

Besides this, this guitar is a dream and plays and sounds fantastic.

Bob M.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Bob, I have a Pro II Custom with the same undercarriage and changer design as yours that has the same problem. Even after backing off the screw for the knee lever stop completely, so the throw is the longest possible (and quite uncomfortable to use), it still didn´t get quite there. I also used the changer finger hole furthest from the axle and put the rod puller in the upper hole on the bellcrank (which you should try first); still didn´t get there. As for the string lowering and then going up in pitch again, that might have to do with the raise helper springs. I took them all off and it no longer happens. But it didn´t change the fact that it couldn´t lower all the way to C#. Maybe it is just something typical for this particular kind of changer. All the others work fine, just like yours. It doesn´t bother me a lot since I don´t really need that change; I prefer a firm stop for the "D" note and if I need the C#, I´ll do a bar slant.

Regards, Joe H.

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Thanks, Joe, for the reply. I'm doing all that you are but with my same stated result. It seems that it should be possible to lower this string a whole step. I'm obviously trying to get the 1/2 tone tuner thing going. If this (2nd string whole step lower) is not possible with this system/changer, it seems like a giant error and flaw in this particular series of guitars. Is it correctable in any way?

Do all of you Sho-Bud owners with guitars of this era have the same problem? Are there any Sho-Bud players with non-super pro parts guitars that can lower the Eb-2nd on the E9 neck a whole step to C#? Thanks.

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 20 June 2002 at 01:10 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Bob, I'm not familiar with your type of Sho-Bud. But I do know that your problem can be caused by a lower return spring that is too stiff. Altho I'm sure that the spring tension is not designed to be adjustable, I'm sure you can figure out a way to back it off. For example you could add a wire hook at one end. Or you could go to House Of Springs.
If you try another string, remember that changing to a lighter string will make your pulls shorter. However in this case a lighter string might not help since your overstrong spring would pull it ever more.

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 20 June 2002 at 02:07 PM.]

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Thanks DL,
I'm getting ready for a little disassembly and adjustment and I want to bone up on my technical before diving in.

I'll have to make the pilgrimage to 'Spring City'.

It just seems to me that with all those 'Buds' out there, someone must have broke the code on this one.

Bob M.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Bob, I think Spring City has moved. There over by the highway now. They are right next to "Scotch Tape Land".
JE:-)>

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Good point, Earnest. Those non-adjustable springs can be a hassle; on my guitar they were so worn out that I changed all of them, only at first I used a gauge that was way too heavy and made everything stiff, messed up my hands a lot, too. But I think I now have found the perfect springs for my ShoBud; the ones I have now are as soft as they possibly can be while still returning properly. They are a little smaller in diameter than the original but the wire is just slightly heavier. Over here, they come as a piece about 3 ft. long and you have to cut off the individual springs. The trick is to cut them to the correct length. As a rule, I leave on two more loops than the original (of course one that has never been shortened). It takes a little experimentation. I haven´t tried since if I now can get the 2nd string to lower to C#, but I might do so next week just out of curiosity.

chas smith · From: Encino, CA, USA

My experience with Sho-Buds is lowering the high strings a whole tone isn't always easy. You might try a heavier guage string if the spring doesn't work, and you might check to be sure that nothing is pulling on or restricting the raise on that finger since that would override the lower.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Again, a lighter string, not a heavier string, would give more pitch change for a given amount of changer travel.

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

My ProIII custom has the same design, although it's a double raise, single lower.
There's no problem to lower the second string on mine. I use a 0.015 for that one.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom

richard burton · From: Britain

Bob,
Do you raise your second string? If not, do what I did with my ZB to achieve a full tone lower: hold the changer finger in the raise position by increasing the strength of the helper springs. Now, with a bit of ingenuity with the knee lever linkages, push the raise part of the finger back to its 'centre' position, at the same time pull the lower segment of the finger to lower the note. You should easily achieve a full tone drop. Last time I tried to explain this on the forum, nobody understood. Is it any clearer this time? Can any other techies see what I'm getting at, and give me their opinions?
Richard.

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Richard,
I'm not raising the 2nd string, only lowering it.

I'll have to think about what you've written for awhile and see if I can apply it to my problem.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute.

Bob M.

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 22 June 2002 at 12:21 PM.]

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Ok Bob; I hate your having to go through this pal......and there are some good tips here to try....Earnest has a good point in string guage as a last resort.
Ok here's the prob.
Those Changer fingers kinda have slack side to side and that will make for some havik.
Those pull rods "Have" to be perfectly lined up between bell crank(puller) and Finger. That encludes every single rod; cause eventually one rod will throw a finger into another and another......and it will limit the finger next to it.
Also; making sure(not that you haven't)while upside down.....loosen the 9th string lower nylon tuner all the way out of the way. Then on the 2nd string lower rod; loosen the set screw that holds the rod to the crank(bushing)....now move the knee lever all the way towards the inside so that the cross bar has moved to the furthest closed position; then move the rod all the way till nylon tuner hits finger, then tighten it back to the crank(bushing).
Ok now try lowering a whole tone....you may even have to back off the nylon tuner from lowering too much...or adjust the knee lever stop to stop earlier. If that's not pulling it down a whole tone....then you indeed have some binding in the finger itself....and therefore you need to swap it with another finger......"one your not using a change on; like 1st string or 7th string. And yes you will have to take all rods out; and springs; and finger axle out, to swap around fingers....but that will give you a chance to turn the axle over since over time the top of axle gets worn spots and will also limit movement.
Or you can pay for shipping or bring it down.....and I'll do it all for free.....and you will have a brand new working E9th neck after I get finished with it.......as I take large pride in working on the mechanics of these great sho~buds....and would consider it a pleasure.
And there are other things; but my mouth runnith over all ready...Good luck and let me know if I can help more.
Ricky

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Ricky,
Thanks for your help and very generous offer. I enjoy tinkering with my guitars myself and with all the excellent help from this wonderful resource, I'm sure I'll improve, if not perfect, this 2nd string situation.

Since this change in question is on my right knee moving right, it is just a few inches from the changer (it's the 1st bellcrank after the changer) and the pull is very straight and 'in line'. I don't lower the the D-9th to C# on this lever and I am raising/lowering on the 1st and 7th strings on other levers, so I've got something a little bit different going on. But you're right, I may need a new changer finger and I will disassemble and do this if I can't find an easier way that will make this change happen. I have slacked off the pull rod and re-connected everything as per you description earlier but that hasn't done it. Removing the 'helper' spring has cured the note's slight sharpening at the end of the lever travel but the note will still not reach a C# and still has too much lever travel to be practical. From the responses (thanks to all), it is obviously a complex thing with many possible cures.

This guitar was built in the mid to late 70's. By that time, the half-tone tuner on the 2nd string was a pretty typical thing to see on an E9 tuning. I find it pretty amazing the Sho-Bud was building guitars at that time that wouldn't/couldn't drop the 2nd string a whole step.

I would characterize my Pro III as a mint condition steel with very low miles; it is my backup - not my main guitar. Although I cannot vouch unequivocally for the 2nd string changer finger, my guitar is very strong mechanically in all apparent aspects.

Isn't strange that some will and some won't - kinda like being on a high school date again!

Bob M.

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 21 June 2002 at 01:45 PM.]

[This message was edited by Bob Metzger on 22 June 2002 at 03:36 AM.]

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