| Author |
Topic: Why isn't the PSG tuned straight Et like a guitar? |
Clark Doughty
From:
KANSAS
|
Posted 16 Jan 2014 8:49 pm |
|
ET or JI..............ok I know what ET is but what is JI?...............  |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 1:42 am
|
|
The original poster's question about guitarists tuning to ET is interesting. Those guitar players who use a light guage set of strings with a plain third will often have to compensate by tuning the open G string slightly flat. If not, all notes on that string on the lower frets will invariably be noticeably sharp.
I play a lot of guitars belonging to friends, and very few have the intonation set up correctly. Spending some time adjusting the bridge (if it is adjustable) will help the overall tuning.
Whether it is a Telecaster or a pedal steel, it's all about compromise. The instrument will never be 100% in tune, but as long as it is there or thereabouts, the rest is in the hands of the player. Bobby Lee is so right about the bar being the defining factor of being in tune.
Also, there has been a lot of neurosis of steel players about tuning and body flex since the electronic tuner came about. Back in the old days of the tuning fork, we never had the obsession with tuning that we have nowadays. We just got on with it. 
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
|
|
|
Georg SΓΈrtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 2:54 am
|
|
On my regular guitar I modified the nut for good intonation all the way down on plain 3d.
Have thought of putting intonation nut on my PSGs too, but it is a bit more complex with rollers...  |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 6:42 am
|
|
My theory is that you should ignore numbers, and tune your guitar so it sounds good! IMHO, too many players are trying to relegate what is really a learned skill to a simple set of numbers on a gizmo that will work in all situations. Ain't gonna happen, folks. Look at it this way, if you tune by numbers (I don't care whose) and it still sounds "out"...you're positively screwed. And evidently, this is what is happening, for there are these continually recurring threads about "What numbers should I use?" and how the instrument should be tuned. "Oh my! Help me! What do I do?" Here's what you do...you tune it so it sounds good, because nothing else matters.
Most pros sound pretty damn good, and that's because they have trained their ears and learned to tune their guitar so it sounds in-tune, not because they have "better numbers" or a more expensive tuner.  |
|
|
|
Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 8:23 am
|
|
I would add... Once you tune it so it sounds good, then record those numbers, so you can tune quickly and silently at a gig or rehearsal or wherever.
Your ear is the final tuning tweaker, but it seems we have alot of newbs these days, and it takes time to develop your tuning ear and get used to playing Pedal Steel with other people/instruments.
Record your gigs and/or rehersals, and try to hear what open-string and pedal/lever-combos are in or out of tune, and adjust/fix as needed.
Update your chart until it's super easy to tune up quickly and silently (and play in tune) using your chart/tuner.
At first, most tuning issues are due to pedals or levers not being fully engaged, or the bar is crooked or off the fret.
The main reason the Steel isn't tuned Straight-Up like guitar, is that, Guitars have the ability to "set the Intonation" by adjusting each string to a different string length at the bridge.
A Tele has a Scale length of 25.5", but the actual length of each string is +/- 25.5" a little bit, in order for all the chords/notes to be in-tune up and down the neck in both open and fretted positions.
Each string on a Pedal Steel is the same exact length from end to end, So we compensate with a Hybrid tuning method of some kind. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 9:47 am
|
|
| Ken Byng wrote: |
| Also, there has been a lot of neurosis of steel players about tuning and body flex since the electronic tuner came about. Back in the old days of the tuning fork, we never had the obsession with tuning that we have nowadays. We just got on with it. |
FWIW, the electronic tuner ended my obsession with tuning (which also ended my first marriage, btw). The tuner confirmed what I had been hearing and allowed me to tune silently so as not to annoy the current Mrs. Lee.
In the old days of the tuning fork, the "two F#'s" dilemma drove me (and wife #1) crazy. I didn't understand what was happening until I was able to analyze it with an electronic tuner (after the divorce was final).
I have no regrets. She was nuts before I met her.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 11:38 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| Ken Byng wrote: |
| Also, there has been a lot of neurosis of steel players about tuning and body flex since the electronic tuner came about. Back in the old days of the tuning fork, we never had the obsession with tuning that we have nowadays. We just got on with it. |
FWIW, the electronic tuner ended my obsession with tuning (which also ended my first marriage, btw). The tuner confirmed what I had been hearing and allowed me to tune silently so as not to annoy the current Mrs. Lee.
In the old days of the tuning fork, the "two F#'s" dilemma drove me (and wife #1) crazy. I didn't understand what was happening until I was able to analyze it with an electronic tuner (after the divorce was final).
I have no regrets. She was nuts before I met her. |
The first time that another steel player mentioned temperament tuning to me was Reece Anderson when I brought him over to the UK in the 1970's. Reece brought a a fully chromatic electronic tuner with him - Wow, Gosh, Golly etc (we had never seen one in the flesh so to speak). Reece pointed out the problems of the F# notes once the open tuning was fine and then with A&B pressed down. He had the tuner to substantiate what he was saying. It was never a problem to me before then and I told him so. He just laughed, but it wasn't long after this that I bought a tuner and then the discussions started among band members. Those who were tuning by ear to the tuning fork would swear that they were in tune. A quick check by smarty-pants (me) would show that they were way out. Again, it never bothered me before, but tuners changed everything for us players of stringed instruments.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,
Last edited by Ken Byng on 17 Jan 2014 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Willie Sims
From:
PADUCAH, KY, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 11:48 am
|
|
I just recently saw a paul Franklin interview where he was asked how he tuned his guitar. He said he tuned E strings 44O and everything else by EAR.
If that is good enough for him, then all of this other BS about tuning is useless, my theory is, if your guitar sounds out of tune, tune it to where it sounds in tune by ear. If you don't have a good ear for tuning you will probably need a good chromatic tuner. |
|
|
|
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 11:56 am
|
|
b0b's point about being able to tune silently is a good one. Nothing more frustrating than a steel or 6 string guitar player tuning up by ear through an amp for hours. Now I know the real reason why my first wife divorced me.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
|
|
|
Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 4:02 pm
|
|
Off topic statement....Talk to a professional piano tuner/Technion, and he will tell you a piano is not tuned 440 on all keys, some are sharp/flat so that triads are in tune/sound right.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 4:28 pm
|
|
| ...adding to Bill's statement, I believe everything below middle A is slightly flat, everything above middle A is slightly sharp....but again its all relative to your ears I guess... |
|
|
|
Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
|
Posted 17 Jan 2014 8:23 pm
|
|
This year, 2014 starts my 44th year as a professional piano tuner. I tune pianos to A-440 ET with no stretch deviation in the two octaves below middle C, and one octave above middle C. Lower and higher than this section, I do a 'stretch', e.g. lowering the bass strings until the predominant (strongest signal) of the partial is beat-less in the octave. On the higher range I start with C' and gradually stretch upwards a few cents in each octave to make the strings 'brighter' sounding. The C' is usually ~2.5 cents sharp, C'' ~7.5 cents sharp up to the C8 which may be up to 20 cents sharp.
I do NOT tweak the thirds, 4ths, 5ths or 6ths in any way to make a chord sound perfect (beatless), because if you make one chord sound pure, the others will 'stink'.
I do not tune my guitars to ET at all. My steel is tuned using an A or C tuning fork and using harmonics to tune the rest, and lastly I use my ear as the final judge on how it sounds.
As stated above, the biggest problem I still see is that after all the carefully fine tuning done on the open strings and the pedals, either the bar is not held straight across the fret ,or the pedals are not pushed all the way down.
Thanx,
Jim |
|
|
|
Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
|
Posted 18 Jan 2014 5:08 am
|
|
Jim,
Thanks for clearing that up, It was a while back that it was explained to me. The way I stated it was the way I remembered it. Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
|
|
|
Dickie Whitley
|
Posted 18 Jan 2014 5:36 am
|
|
| Thank you Jim, your explanation much appreciated. |
|
|
|
Jan Viljoen
From:
Pretoria, South Africa
|
Posted 3 Jun 2014 12:48 am
|
|
Hi Blokes,
Here is another web about intonation and tuning of strings.
http://www.acousticmasters.com/AcousticMasters_Tuning.htm
_________________
Sierra S10, Stage One, Gibson BR4, Framus, Guya 6&8, Hofner lap, Custom mandolins, Keilwerth sax.
Roland Cube 80XL, Peavey112-Valve King and Special, Marshall 100VS. |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 3 Jun 2014 2:00 am
|
|
I usually just strive to have the Telecaster and Steel (442) out of tune exactly the same.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
|
|
|
David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
|
Posted 3 Jun 2014 4:25 am
|
|
I can reliably induce net-bound exploding-head syndrome when I recommend that you should set an electric guitar's intonation AFTER the strings age a bit and settle down.
EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU HAVE TO USE NEW STRINGS OR IT'S WRONG!!!
It says so right there, it's in all the books!
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Which is why the intonation on most people's electric guitars is off after a few days, and just keeps getting off-er until !New String Day! rolls around again. Yes, I'd like to be a rock star with a free-string endorsement (Brand? Who cares!) and my little minions changing all the strings on all my instruments every day... at age 56, the window of opportunity just may be closing a teeny bit. Do the major record labels still have thousands of talent scouts driving all around residential neighborhoods, listening out the car window for the Next Guitar Hero? They sure are slow.
I got a minor tingle out of the recent Jeff Beck biography - particularly when he was in the Yardbirds, he never tuned his guitar to anything recognizably normal. He didn't play chords anyway (B.B. & Albert Kingesque?) so he just bent everything up to the correct pitches. Except when he wouldn't.  |
|
|
|
Mitch Adelman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
|
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 3 Jun 2014 8:17 am
|
|
I think James' departures from ET are mainly for two issues:
1. Everything is a bit flat because he capos a lot and capos pull the strings sharp. A fixed tension capo (e.g., typical Kyser or similar fixed-tension system) tends to pull strings quite sharp, but even a variable tension capo (e.g., Shubb, Planet Waves) pull them sharp a bit. There's a tradeoff between getting the string firmly against the fret vs. not pulling the string sharp.
2. Lower strings with heavy windings deviate from the ideal string model quite a bit, and when you hit them hard, they sound quite sharp. Try hitting the open low E very lightly, or better yet, hit a light harmonic at the 12th fret. Now pluck the open low E hard. It's sharp.
You ask why steel players obsess with tuning, are anal about ET, and so on. I guess I don't anymore, but to deal with what I perceived as a certain degree of "out-of-tune-ness" using a tuner, I started experimenting with tuning methods and had to obsess with it for a while to figure out what was going on.
I came to steel after 30+ years of 6-string guitar. In the earliest days (60s), I tuned the guitar to harmonics using octaves as much as possible, and made adjustments as needed by ear. Later (70s), I learned to count beats to get somewhere near an equal temperament, using Hideo Kamimoto's "Complete Guitar Repair", pp. 54-58. I was too poor to afford a StroboConn, but later (80s) came workable and affordable electronic tuners. But I generally adjusted the tuning along the lines of what James is talking about, but never had specific 'offsets' - pretty much an ear/feel thing. Of course, properly setting the bridge intonation and keeping the action at the nut low are critical for good guitar intonation. To me, the short story is that a tuner is a useful guide, but if you can't hear a problem, you'll never be able to figure out a fix. Being able to hear pitch well is critical, even for a guitar player. I started guitar with blues, and it is definitely true that blue notes are not necessarily exactly on the Western tuning system - but that doesn't mean the pitch of notes doesn't matter. In fact, I'd argue that dealing with the typical microtonal stuff of blues, getting the pitch exactly where I want it matters a lot.
When I came to steel (late 90s), I just tuned with a tuner initially, made some slight adjustments, but tuned pretty close to ET. When I came on this forum, I read with some puzzlement all the 'tuning wars' arguments. But I knew from my own experience that I was often not getting the sound I was looking for when I would play multiple strings together. I'd hear the great players play and their 3-note chords sounded great, and then I'd listen to myself and there was something really missing, open strings or up the neck, and I didn't know exactly what to do about it. Things that didn't bother me so much on guitar started to become noticeable on steel if I really listened carefully - especially long sustained phrases sounded off. So, using the discussions on all these tuning threads, I started experimenting. It took a while, but as I experimented with different tuning methods in a very quiet room, I started hearing differences based on tuning. And if I could hear them on open strings, I started hearing issues with my bar on the strings better. I guess everyone has a different idea about what sounds 'good'. I like, e.g., a pure 1, 3, 5 major or 1, b3,5 minor or inverted triads to sound pretty much spot on with no beats, but I'm not so particular about extended chords - 6ths, maj7, dom7, 9, 11, 13, b5, #5, and so on. It took me a while to get it through my skull that the steel didn't have the same limitations as a fixed-pitch instrument like guitar or piano, but ultimately all this influenced the way I tune and play.
So what Donny said above is absolutely correct, to my mind. It has to sound 'good', whatever that is. I personally find it helpful to have a mental model of what is going on physically and mathematically. It helps me figure out how to adjust (change) what I'm doing to get where I want to be sonically, in my ears.
I also took something to heart that Paul Franklin stated on one of these tuning threads. He said, essentially, that he always tries to tune by ear, even if he can't be loud when it's noisy, because it's good ear training to be able to learn to hear pitch well in a congested sonic environment (my interpretation of what he said). I totally agree - seriously, how many times are you in a playing situation where you really need to be subtle, in the background, but still need to be playing in-tune? For me, most of the time! No instrument should be dominating all or even most of the time - but you need to be able to correctly hear pitch. It's tough, and it's all about hearing subtle pitch distinctions with lots of other stuff going on. No frets, you have to be able to hear it.
My take. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 4 Jun 2014 1:21 pm
|
|
| Stuart Legg wrote: |
b0b that is my point exactly. Why is it that all steel players are so anally endowed with a pitch correct ear and guitar players are not.
You can tune your PSG straight up 440 and play in a band and hardly anyone would notice that I wasn't tuned sweetened.
Sure the guitar is off from ET in places but it was intended to be ET.
|
Many players spend as much time tunung as they do playing. And strangely, their sound (as far as being in tune) is no better than the players that spend a minute or two tuning, and then commence to hours and hours of playing.
Of course, there's a lesson in that, but the players who really need it are too busy tuning to recognize it.  |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 4 Jun 2014 3:16 pm
|
|
Every time this crops up I am reminded of Stravinsky's complaint that "harpists spend half their time tuning and the other half playing out of tune".
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 5 Jun 2014 11:23 am
|
|
Maybe I missed it - but did anyone mention the fact that most 6-string guitars have some sort of intonation adjustment (in addition to the slight "ear" adjustments most experienced players make) and steels have a straight bridge. The relative scale length of each string also has an affect on the overall tuning, especially when playing chords - in addition to string gage.
I don't tune "straight up" on 6-string, nor do I on pedal steel or lap steel. Each one is "sweetened" according to the tuning (and in the case of pedal steel, changes)and scale length. I use specific strobe programming b0b helped me work out years ago for B6, , stock guitar tuning settings for most 6-string setups and have worked out a few custom ones for some of the open-E Melobar tunings I use due to the use of heavier string gages.
IMO there's a definite - and beneficial - difference when a tuning is "sweetened". "Straight up" simply sounds out of tune to me with most guitars.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 7 Jun 2014 1:32 pm
|
|
Question for bOb,
How did you deal with F#s? RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 7 Jun 2014 5:57 pm
|
|
I compensated the F# with a micro pull for many years, but I now consider it to be the center of the tuning. I tune it to 0 on the meter. Cabinet drop knocks it a bit flat when I press A+B, so it's in tune with the C# note.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
