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Topic: Why isn't the PSG tuned straight Et like a guitar? |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 15 Jan 2014 6:17 pm |
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You never hear guitar players tuned straight up ET arguing about how they tune there guitar or admonishing each other with out of tune complaints.
So why are steel players so anal about ET? |
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Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
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Posted 15 Jan 2014 7:42 pm That's a great question
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| There's a fiddle player in my band that's also a symphonic violinist. She's weirded out big time by the explanation of my offsets. And I quote"you mean you don't actually get that thing in tune?" |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 15 Jan 2014 11:32 pm
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b0b that is my point exactly. Why is it that all steel players are so anally endowed with a pitch correct ear and guitar players are not.
You can tune your PSG straight up 440 and play in a band and hardly anyone would notice that I wasn't tuned sweetened.
Sure the guitar is off from ET in places but it was intended to be ET.
A lot of the same problems you have with the guitar being off from ET in places you will have to some degree with the PSG. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 12:03 am
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It amazes me why anyone would want to play PSG seeing as how most get beat down by the self righteous tuning and tone critics.
We love to hear Jimmy Stewart talk because of his imperfections.
Sometimes that slide that didn’t quite make it to the perfect spot we liked better than the one that did.
Listen to all those old blues players. If everything would have been in perfect tune and those slides were all perfect it would not of had soul and would have been boring.
So if your ear won’t let you get perfect with what the tuning critics think is best could be a good thing, but that doesn‘t mean don‘t work on it.
Go ahead and put your best effort playing sound clips on here and most of us will like them.
I’m going to judge you on your content and how it moves me and not on perfect pitch. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:26 am
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Good guitarists will slightly adjust by ear after tuning straight up. The most glaring issue is the third string at lower frets. That open G is a root or fifth in a G or C major chord respectively, but it is a third in an E major chord. More or less the same issues pertain for the open second string. Some light tweaking helps a lot. As pedal steel players, we have four more strings, and, if you take our copedants into account, exponentially more "virtual" strings, thus requiring far more tweaking of the straight tuning.
Violinists are constantly adjusting pitch by placement on the fingerboard. Their fingers are like built in "compensators." A guitarist can do something similar by subtly bending strings or (especially on lightly strung electric guitars) through varying pressure on the strings. I find myself doing this on the third string a lot at lower frets. Wind players do something similar when they apply more or less breath to "bend" a pitch out of straight up tuning to make it sound "in tune."
As steel players we are extremely limited in these areas. Although one can slightly slant the bar (and many of us do, say to compensate the seventh string), it won't get you far when playing three or four note chords. And if we apply more pressure with the bar, all of the notes are going to rise in pitch, not just one as when a guitarist does it. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 4:47 am
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As to Stuart's original post, Buddy said he went back to ET.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 4:52 am Yeah?
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| As to Stuart's original post, Buddy said he went back to ET. |
Huh
I'm using Sids at this point....Lane you only sweeten your g#s? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 5:00 am
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Almost right. G# and C# are 4 cents flat, everything else straight up. So simple I don't even bother to program a tuner. Too easy to memorize.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 7:11 am
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| I the thing I find odd is I hear a few PSG players tuned to ET and they sound great... |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 9:21 am
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The mechanical stresses on a steel guitar cabinet keep it from ever being perfectly in tune, no matter what tuning system you use. To me, the goal is to have an acceptable tuning that will stay in tune for an hour (at least) of playing time.
The big point of contention is the 3rds (G#, C# and D# notes on the E9th). If you tune your 3rds to ET and they drift sharp, they sound horrible. I suspect that's why Lane tunes his 4 cents flat. If you tune your 3rds harmonically perfect (JI) and they drift flat, they sound horrible.
There's a big space between ET and JI, about 15 cents, where the 3rd is acceptable to almost everyone's ears. If you tune your G#, C# and D# notes anywhere in that space and tune your E, B, D and F# notes to sound good using whatever method you like, you'll be able to play in tune for a set or two.
Tuning is not that critical. Bar placement is what's critical. Beginners often don't hold their bar straight. That's the most common source of "tuning problems" among new players.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 10:26 am
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This guy from the Peterson FB page is explaining in one part how to get b7th in tune.
Check out his frets and that is why it is called a slippery slope.
I agree with b0b for the most part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-9FNHz1ygw |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 10:51 am
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We are speaking of characteristics of the instruments as a problem. Those problems will effect any tuning adversely,
But that is a separate issue from tuning straight up ET or sweetened which is compensating ET
The guitar is set up for ET whether the manufacturer got it there are not is not the fault of the ET.
So when you speak of bending strings on a guitar to sound more in tune you are referencing the flaws not the ET tuning.
My idea of a perfect guitar or PSG (with or without pedal and lever combinations) would be one that checked out on the tuner straight up ET on every string on every fret.
I think I get to as close to that as possible with my present tuning. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 11:02 am
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The fret markers on a PSG are ET just like they are on a guitar.
All fretted instruments are ET.
When you use a bar on an instrument’s strings it becomes a fretted instrument. You are simply holding the fret in your hand. You can move sharp or flat or slant the fret but you can’t effect the strings in a staggered manor to compensate for the inversions as you move up and down the neck so ET is the compromise for that problem. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 11:20 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Almost right. G# and C# are 4 cents flat, everything else straight up. So simple I don't even bother to program a tuner. Too easy to memorize. |
If I tune straight up and then tune my G#s and C#s 4cents flat and mash those pedals down my strings across including the ones affected by the pedals all check out on the tuner at 439. That's about as good an ET you can get. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 11:43 am
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Lane I don't think your way of tuning is that much different the Mine (Bo uses)
Its straight up 441 with A&B all the strings check out 440 with B&C all 440 A&f all 440.
the only deviation I made was with the lever that lowers the Es which I set at 441 while the rest of the strings read 442 so that it would be 440 when it was used with the A&B pedals for a 9th chord which checks out 440 across the neck
this if for the Stage One with 4cents cab drop.
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 12:57 pm
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
All fretted instruments are ET. |
When I played bass I tuned by ear in natural intervals (easy using harmonics), because if you used a tuner people thought you must be tone deaf (this was back in the 80s). So with ET frets I had a hybrid that annoyed neither the guitarist nor the pianist, which is the name of the game if you're on bass.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Peay
From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:51 pm Tuning...
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| b0b wrote: |
If you tune your 3rds to ET and they drift sharp, they sound horrible. I suspect that's why Lane tunes his 4 cents flat. If you tune your 3rds harmonically perfect (JI) and they drift flat, they sound horrible....
Tuning is not that critical. Bar placement is what's critical. Beginners often don't hold their bar straight. That's the most common source of "tuning problems" among new players. |
Totally agree...I'm an engineer, and so I deal in "tolerances" moreso than "absolute, exact" values. And if I'm starting all the way on either end (JI or ET), there could be problems. So I tune roughly halfway between the two (I use Larry Bell's "tampered" tuning, with a few tweaks).
And not only is bar placement critical, but ya gotta get those pedals all the way down, especially in that AF position! |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 4:15 pm
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Don't get me wrong I'm not picking on anyone here just asking a question and entering IMHO.
Are you telling me that all these PSG players are tuning the 3rds flat because they are afraid of string drift?
The only thing that drifts sharp is the 3rds? I didn't know string drift was so selective. I always notice all the strings drifting in the same direction fairly equal.
Maybe allowing for string drift is somewhat like tits on a man. Their there just in case? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 5:20 pm
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What the heck is ET?
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Butch Mullen
From:
North Carolina, USA 28681
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 6:03 pm
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| I tune mine ET, just like Ernest Tubb. Thought I'd say it before somebody else did. |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 6:06 pm
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ET is Paul Franklin, who is so damned good on the pedal steel he must be an Extra-Terrestrial!
But if you are serious, ET is Equal or Even Temperament, meaning the octave is evenly divided and the note that is one semitone above a given note is the given note's frequency times the twelfth root of two.
Most tuners have a button or setting that says "Chromatic" and what they really mean is ET.
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Dickie Whitley
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 6:47 pm
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I don't know about anyone getting "anal" about the way they tune until someone else basically calls their way of tuning "stupid" or "wrong" and insists their way is "right" (with a strong hint of self-righteousness behind it), then the factual part is all over.
I think the tuning thing is overblown, and way too many people get their blood pressure and anger up when that kind of stuff starts to fly.
Paul Franklin tunes the way he does, Buddy Emmons tunes another, the bottom line is that both are in tune with the folks they're playing with, and if you're accomplishing that with whatever method you use then that's all that's needed.
Enough on the speeches about ET, JI, and who knows what tuning. If it works for the band you play in then that's the final word, period. I just see too much of this "mine is better than your'n" type of subtle one up on you, plus confusing the mess out of the newbies, and we wonder why more people don't pick it up.
My apologies for the long rant, but we've been down this road far too many times already. Whatever tuning you use, if you're in tune with the band you play with, then practice more and quit worrying with the tuning, it works. My humble opinion and two cents worth, YMMV. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 8:36 pm
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| Bo Legg wrote: |
| The only thing that drifts sharp is the 3rds? I didn't know string drift was so selective. I always notice all the strings drifting in the same direction fairly equal. |
The same direction, yes. Fairly equal, no. If you've ever sat under an air conditioning vent that turns on and off, or watched the sun set in front of you in the middle of a set, you'd know that strings do not detune equally when the temperature changes quickly. There's physics to prove it, I'm sure.
Those are worst case scenarios, but they do happen. I've played steady gigs where temperature changes had to be dealt with often. Most of the time, I could compensate by aiming higher or lower. The banjo player was at wit's end. Apparently a banjo detunes if you sneeze on it.  (His did, anyway.)
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