How do you connect a split on string 6 ?

Peter · Posted 20 Apr 2002 2:35 pm

How do you connect a split on string 6 ?

I have this knee pedal:
2nd lower from D# > D
6th lower from G# > G
8th lower from E > D

When I push my B-pedal raising 6th string from G# > A, this specific knee pedal does not lower the 6th string back to G, but somewhere in between. So I will need a split. How does this work?
What rods must be added and to which position? And do I need to tune no pedals first, THEN B-pedal to get A , THEN B-pedal PLUS knee to get G#, then knee lever on its own to get G?

Also, some guys have a compensator on the 7th F# string connected to the A pedal.
Why would anyone need that? My guitar does not seem to detune string 7 with the A pedal down.(Apart from 3 cents cabinet drop).

I hope someone can help. It is an all-pull triple raise/lower U12 guitar.

[This message was edited by Peter on 20 April 2002 at 04:13 PM.]

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 April 2002 at 11:33 AM.]

Tim Rowley · From: Pinconning, MI, USA

Peter,

What BRAND of steel guitar is it? For instance if it's an Emmons LeGrande or certain other makes, the split-tuning feature is already built into the guitar so all you need to know is how to adjust it. If you need to install a rod on your particular steel to get the split, the method could vary slightly from brand to brand, but the tuning method would be about as you have described it.

I would suggest that Bobbe Seymour would know the proper methods for achieving splits on most makes of steel guitars and could probably help you with setting this up. Please tell us the brand you have.

Tim R.

Peter · Posted 21 Apr 2002 1:06 am

Tim, this is the (fake?) Remington guitar from Gruhn guitars, which has been discussed on the forum previously.(See it here)

It is an all-pull, with a seemingly normal changer. Triple raise and lower. There are no helper springs. But there are 12 lower springs which needed only minor adjustment to ensure they return to their stops.

I cannot see any different arrangements for the rods and cranks. All rods and connections are straight forward pulls. Normal stops on pedals and levers. I do not know what a tunable split looks like, hence my request. What should I look for to recognise a split? I searched the forum, but I have not found this information yet.

The only suggestion for string 6 I could find was:
1- Tune open G#
2- Tune pedal raise to A
3- Tune lower to G with split screw (could this be the lower spring??)
4- Tune the pedal + knee combination with nylon tuner at the endplate.

What else do you need to know? Peter..

(I could not find a tunable split on Bobbe's new website.)

[This message was edited by Peter on 21 April 2002 at 02:32 AM.]

rpetersen · From: Iowa

I think you have the right instructions if you have the tuning screws on the endplate - Except, I always do this:
1. tune the open string
2. tune the raise
3. then tune the split with the nylon tuner
4. tune the lower with the endplate screw

If you don't have the endplate screws you can do it with extra pull rods - I have a diagram on this that I could mail you if you llke, or maybe I could get someone to scan it and then email it to you

------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band

rpetersen · From: Iowa

Maybe I didn't understand your question at first
1: tune 6th string open to G#
2: tune B pedal to A
3: tune knee lever and B pedal together to G
4: then tune complete lower with knee kever to a F# (no pedal)

------------------
Ron Petersen &
The Keep'n Tyme Band

[This message was edited by rpetersen on 21 April 2002 at 05:57 AM.]

[This message was edited by rpetersen on 21 April 2002 at 05:58 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Peter--if your guitar is not rigged for split tuning, then here's the other (standard for Carter, and other guitars, I'm not sure which) way to get there.
It is simple, provided that you have an open hole on your raise finger.

Simply: run a rod from your 6th string lowering lever bellcrank to the 6th string raise finger. Best to use a bellcrank hole close to the guitar underbody for two reasons--this requires minimum leverage, and since it is running to the raise finger, this avoids crossing with the lowering rod (not a crime when unavoidable).

The tuning procedure then is:

1) tune the open string

2) tune the raise pedal (B)

3) tune the combined B + Lever G note with the standard lower hex nut

4) tune the lowering lever (F#) alone at the new hex nut on the raise finger.

If any of this is wrong, it's not my fault 'cause I'm out of coffee this morning.

------------------------------------------

One more thing--I'm not clear on how common this is but I know I'm not alone--this split may tune a good number of cents differently depending on whether you engage the pedal first, then the lever, or vice-versa. I've never quite understood what is at issue here but if it happens with you guitar then you will just have to decide which way you will train yourself to play the split and tune it accordingly.

------------------
FCarter U-12 7+8E
FStartUp SteelE
FPhoto GalleryE

[This message was edited by Jon Light on 21 April 2002 at 06:23 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Peter writes,

"Also, some guys have a compensator on the 7th F# string connected to the A pedal.
Why would anyone need that? My guitar does not seem to detune string 7 with the A pedal down.(Apart from 3 cents cabinet drop)."

Here is why Peter. Most steel players tune their steels so there is little to no "beats" when playing two or more strings at the same time. This style of tuning is called "Just Intonation" or simply JI.

While this makes the steel sound beautiful, there are some clashes. The most obvious of these is the F#'s on the standard E9th tuning. These strings can NOT be tuned to no beats with the A and/or B pedal engaged versus disengaged.

So, many players "compensate" one or both of them (1 and/or 7). Some use an additional bellcrank and rod installed on the A pedal crossbar and attach a "lower" rod to the changer. This then, slightly lowers the F#(s) when the A pedal is engaged; to remove the beats that naturally occur when the B strings are tuned for no beats with the E strings. That is, the C#'s WILL now have beats with the F#'s.

But this is not the only way it is done. Some compensate with the B pedal. Still others compensate with the E lever. (The one that lowers the E's). Some do not compensate at all and tune "in between". Still others favor one over the other. That is, they tune for no beats with the pedals down (or up) and live with the beats in the other position.

Note: compensation is NOT necessary if one tunes ET (Equal temperament). OR commonly referred to as "Straight up 440". This is because there are beats between ANY two strings. So it is an overall compromise.

Now I have a question for you. Why would you want to lower your 6th string back to a G# (with a knee lever) after you have raised it to an A with your B pedal?

God bless you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 21 April 2002 at 07:51 AM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

After reading Carl's question and then going back and reading Peter's question, I can only await Peter's response because I too am perplexed. Peter--the common use of a split between the lever and the pedal is to combine them to achieve the G note. This presumes the lever to be lowering the G# to F#. It is an either/or. Either tune the lever to lower G#>G or tune it to lower G#>F# and do as I have described above to have a tunable split. There is no useful use of a split that I can think of when the lever just lowers the half-step.

As to the 7th string--I found the A pedal compensator to feel unpleasantly notchy at the end of its throw, when the compensator engaged (it is a very tiny amount of movement to do such an intonation correction so it only starts pulling at the end of the pedal travel) so I moved it to the B pedal where I am quite satisfied with the feel and the effectiveness. It represents something of a compromise since it doesn't come into play during some uses of the A pedal alone but so far I'm living with it.

Peter · Posted 21 Apr 2002 10:54 am

Thank you guys for your replies. When I read my post again, I was also perplexed.
I did not describe it very well, I'm sorry. (This may be because I am from the Netherlands and English is not my home language.) I will edit the post now.

I have connected a rod as suggested and I can confirm that the resulting note should be a G when pushing both the pedal and the knee lever.

So when I apply the knee lever I can change the open E chord to a G chord. Or when I apply A&B pedals (A chord) I can get a C#minor chord by releasing B pedal, and then get an A7 by pushing the knee (on string 4,5,6).

So, I am trying to get a G-note on string 6 with the knee lever on its own, as well as knee lever with the B pedal down. But maybe this should not be done with a split, but something else?

Carl, thank you for your explanation and your patience. I tried to simulate the effect by slighlty pushing pedal 5 and it makes a big difference. I just want to try the same when playing with a backing band because playing on your own somehow sounds very different than hearing your intonation in a mix.

Now where is my coffee?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Peter,
I don't understand why you need a split.
If you have a lever that lowers 6 from G# to G you have everything you need to achieve the progression you mentioned. I love the G# to G change and use that A7 chord with the A pedal and G# to G change often. Works great on the 3rd string as well. (I have it on 3 6 and 10)

Going from the A to the rootless A7 chord, you simply rock off the B pedal and engage the G# to G simultaneously. The sound of the tonic (A on 6) going down a whole tone to G while sustaining the other notes in the chord is a useful change.

A lot of players also like to be able to lower 6 to F#. THAT'S where the split is typically used. You can get F# using the lever alone / G splitting with the B pedal / G# no pedals / A using the B pedal (and your universal setup probably raises to A# as well). I hope this is clear. Email me if it is not.

For the compensator thing,
1. Tune your 5th string to B -- straight up
2. Tune your A pedal to give you C# -- tempered or not (your taste/preference)
3. Tune F# on the 1st string
4. NOW - Play 1 and 5 and listen for the beats. If you tune 1 so that it is beatless with the A pedal depressed, it will be FLAT to the B note when you release A.

If you put a pull that slightly flattens the F# when A is pressed, you can tune both the B/F# and C#/F# combinations to be beatless. That's what a tuning compensator does. There are a couple of other functions players compensate as well.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 22 April 2002 at 08:43 AM.]

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