break it down for me:Linking the c6 and e9 necks

Richard Plummer · From: nashville tennessee

Want to get started learning the c6th neck.HOw would I approach it?Can I approach it the same way as the e9th?I wont go into the 1,4,5 on the e9th neck on the open and pedal positions but would like to know the similarities?
Break it down for me.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Richard
The beautiful simplicity of the E9 tuning is that by picking a simple set of string grips you get a lovely major chord, and then by pressing two pedals and playing the same simple string grips, you get ANOTHER lovely major chord.

That relationship between grips and pedal chord changes doesn't exist so simply with the C6 tuning. There are analogies between the two tunings, but generally speaking: 1) the C6 lends itself to more complex chords, though not at all musically daunting, 2) string grips must be changed to achieve straight major-to-major chords, and 3) there is little dependence on the whole-tone raise sound of E9's pedal "A" that we're so familiar with and is so easy to overuse.

Jim Cohen has been writing some informative "understanding C6" articles in the PSGA newsletter lately, Jeff Newman has some good beginner-intermediate C6 course material, and I have 3 albums of western swing material on C6 available, and the two most recent have rhythm tracks and tab books available for all my solos. I would say that the level of expertise needed for my tab book stuff is intermediate/advanced.

Jeff Lampert is very articulate in his postings on the characteristics of the C6, and he's very knowledgeable. I hope he chimes in on this topic.

Jeff?...

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 03 April 2002 at 06:57 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Richard,
There are several ways to link the things you already know about music and about E9 to help understand C6. Some of this info is courtesy of the universal players, who have spent a lot of time figuring out how to cram both tunings on a single neck. You might want to look at this page or some of the others on my website that relate to the logic behind the universal concept -- especially E9/B6 since it's the most applicable to the 'standard' double 10 tunings. This is a string-by-string breakdown, showing the common intervals that allow both tunings to be combined into a single 12-string (or 13 or 14 string) tuning. It also illustrates the common E9 and C6 pedal changes. I feel that the best way to understand this is to study and even experiment with a U-12 setup if possible, but that's just my prejudice (and my mission for the past 25 years).

On your E9 neck, if you hold your Eb lever in, you will have B6. You may have to skip a string or two, but you will find much of the C6 tuning on the 1st fret. That may help you get your bearings. Try it. If you have G on top that's the 1st E9 string at fret 1. You will find the first 7 strings of C6 there.

If you have questions, let me know.

Another way is to look at common chord progressions, e.g., I to IV. On E9, you start in open/no pedals position and hit A+B and you've gone from I to IV (E to A). On C6 there are several of these relationships and, as Herb pointed out, the chords are more harmonically complex than the mostly straight major and minor on E9.

Using the C6 chart from my webpage example above, you see that the open chord -- no surprise -- is C6. In swing/jazz idioms, the I chord is often a sixth or major 7 chord. The IV is often a dominant family chord, a Dom7 or 9th. Pedal 5 from the chart provides a IV9 chord at the same fret.
(NOTE that P5 and 6 are usually reversed on most C6 necks - hope this doesn't confuse)

Another I-->IV relationship can be found three frets up from the root using Pedal 8 (C is at the 3rd fret). Going from Pedal 8 to Pedal 6 at the 3rd fret will give you C7 to F9 -- a I to IV progression. There are many other examples and chord types available -- prepare for a lifetime of study. C6 is a wonderful tuning.

I would recommend Buddy Emmons' Basic C6 course. Go to Ernie Renn's BuddyEmmons.com site or other vendors to order. In that course, Buddy does address some of the similarities with E9.

Studying music theory will help a lot. Learning the common progressions from Western Swing and Big Band Swing will help you understand some of the logic behind the pedal changes. There's WAAAAAAY more there than meets the eye. You gotta dig it out. It doesn't just jump up and bite you like it does on E9.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 03 April 2002 at 07:55 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

IMO, I don't think you should compare C6 to E9 playing. The only similarity I would draw on is that you should anchor your left foot on pedals 5,6 the way you would anchor them on the A,B pedals in E9. That's your home position. But you don't "pump" them like E9. If you need to find a commonality musically with E9, then I can't offer any help. Like Larry said, you should listen to Western swing and jazz standards from Cole Porter and Gershwin Bros. to get a sense of the application of the neck. I'm not saying this is all you can do, but the harmonic capabilities and ways to apply them are extremely compatible with those types of songs. And it will get you out of the "E9" frame of mind, which, IMO, has little value in playing C6, and may slow your progress and restrict your C6 creativity. If I was you (which of course I'm not), I would want to start with a clean slate and no preconceived E9 notions. You would if you started to play saxophone or piano. Same here, IMO. With that said, here is a previous post for a I,IV,V progression that I think will get you up and going. (The next steps would be to expand it into a I,VI,II,V,I Western swing progression, the "I Got Rhythm" changes with lots of ii,V's, etc., but that's for another day.) You ought to get a course as well. Here's the post.

On C6, you gotta think in terms of extending your basic triads into 4+ note chords. In a C,F,G (I,IV,V) progression, instead of thinking C chord (I chord), you think C6 or Cmaj7(9). Instead of thinking F chord (IV chord), you think F6, Fmaj7 or F9, depending on whether you are swing, pop or blues oriented. And for the G chord (V chord), you think G9, G13, or G7b9. The 7b9 (7flat nine) is a basic sound in jazz and pop standards, and can be used as a replacement for a G, G7, or G9 (V)chord. So, for the C (I chord), you are at the 12th (or zero) fret, use either no pedals for C6, or use RKL to make the Cmaj7. OR, you're at fret 7 and get your Cmaj7(9) there, with no pedals. To get your F (IV chord), you are at the 12th fret with pedal 6 for an F9 or 12th fret no pedals for Fmaj7(9), or 3rd (15th also) fret pedal 5 for F9, or 5th fret no pedals for F6, or 5th fret RKL for Fmaj7. For the G chord (V chord), you're at 2nd fret (14th also) pedal 6 for G9, 5th fret pedal 5 for G9, 5th fret pedals 5,RKL or 5,7 for G13, 2nd fret (5,8,11,14 also) pedals 5,6 for G7b9. Basically, when in a C,F,G,C (I,IV,V,I) progression, you can use any of the above C,F,G substitutions. For example, you can play frets 7,5,8,7 or 12,12,11,12 or 12,5,8,7, or 7,12,14,12, or 7,3,2,0, or 7,5,5,7. You just have to select one of the above substitutions (fret and pedals) for each chord. Certain ones sound more appropriate at times than others, depending on the style of the song. That's where the experience comes in. (If you are looking for a lead melody note, most likely at least one of the fret locations will have it.) And mix your string grips. The basic grips are as follow: consecutive string groups eg. 2,3,4 or 6,7,8. slightly spaced eg. 2,3,5 or 5,6,8. Wide grips such as 3,5,8 or 4,6,9. (Maj7 chords are often done with a wide grip to space out the disonnance.) You can also sweep many times, and get string combos like 2,3,4,5 or 5,6,7,8,9. In most cases, all notes between strings 2 through 9 inclusive are useable. There are many variations on these themes, and these rules are not perfect in all situations since no rules are, but this will get you going. Practice the various grips. You will find that immensely useful in mixing your chord voicings, which is a big part of playing this neck.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 April 2002 at 08:39 AM.]

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Larry-Very good explanation, for relating to E9.

Jeff-your post covers a lot of in depth analysis.

I believe as you do that E9 and C6 are two different ways of thinking and playing.

I have played S12 , and it can be good. I have a D10 Classic MSA SS and it is kinda nice to play that C6 neck, which is what I usually play, but in E6.

But when I want to play real country , it is nice to go over to the E9 neck...al

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 03 April 2002 at 08:37 AM.]

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

In addition to what has been said...
I would start by learning "San Antone Rose" on both necks.
Start with basic chord positions.
You can then draw a direct relationship for each E9 chord to each C6th chord.
A lesson on the basics would really help jump start the process.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I have to agree with just about all that's been said here. Though I don't have the theory knowledge of someone like Jeff, Larry, or Herb, I still look at it as almost being two different instruments.

One thing that I notice, as far as differences between the two tunings, is the use of "lick pedals", which are more common on the E9th. A good example is the popular F#-G# first-string change on E9th. It gives you nothing you don't already have. Rather, it's used just for the "effect" of raising a full tone to make the third and resolving into a major triad. (I think I said that right?) There are no such pedals on the standard C6th, here they're used to give different chords, and not just a "sound", or transitional lick.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

With the possible exception of pedal 7 which does two whole-tone raises that can be used for a bunch of nice blues licks, 5 frets above or 7 frets below the home position. At least I find myself doing that a lot lately.

[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 03 April 2002 at 02:09 PM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Joe, I'm one of them "old-timers" that still has the "G" on top, so pedal 7 gives me 2 notes that I didn't have on the open tuning, plus another chord. I don't think I'd call that one a "lick pedal" myself, but you're right...does give you some good ones!

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Yeah, Donny- Pete Drake used that 7th C6 pedal to get licks that sounded like country licks, along with the high G. There is a lot of licks on Pedal 6 and 7 on C6.....al

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Hi Richard, how you doing? Saw this thread and thought that along with all this great help, you might get a little more from my old thread, "I suck on C6" from a while back, if you didn't see it before. The page is at: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003377.html
All the good advice I got in this thread really did help, along with just sitting down at the steel and working on that C6 neck for about 8 hours (on and off, not all at once!) for a few days. No, didn't turn me into Curly Chalker or Jim Cohen but got me to the point where the basics fell into place and took me well past the rut I was in. If it'll work for me........

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