INSTRUCTION STRINGS ACCESSORIES MUSIC LINKS
 Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com for Steel Guitars, Strings, Instruction, Music and Accessories 
Forum Index
where steel players meet online
The Steel Guitar Forum

Post new topic Discussions Invited
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Discussions Invited
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 23 Sep 2013 8:27 am     Reply with quote

The diagram below represents the fretboad on the E9/B6 Uni copedent I play,,,(but can easily be seen as 10 string C6 or even 8 string C6). The orange notes are the notes of the familiar "OBAIL" pattern that Jeff Newman put out. The blue notes are the notes given at a Reece Anderson class I attended. Jeff stated that these notes could be played over "almost" any chord progression,,C, F, G, Am, Em, Dm. At Reeces class we spent a couple of hours one night playing ONLY the notes of his pattern, in various sequences, over dozens of different blues progressions. I thought this would be good info to share with beginners,,,or,,,GET SOME FEED BACK FROM ALL THE THEORY GURUS (the whys and what for's,,LOL)on the forum,,,,,please feel free to comment.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 5:41 am     Reply with quote

No comments??? Where are all the guys that like to comment on theory?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dick Sexton


From:
Greenville, Ohio
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 6:47 am     Hummmm! Reply with quote

Looks like Jeff and Reese were very close to being of the same mind. One note difference in the patterns.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Christopher Woitach


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 7:00 am     Reply with quote

Sonny

That's what's known as the "blues scale"

A minor pentatonic scale with a b5

1 b3 4 b5 5 b7

If you think of the b3 as 1, it's a major pentatonic with a "crushed" 3rd

1 2 b3 3 5 6

Reece's pattern works every time over an A blues, an Am7 chord, and a C major chord

There are other uses, as well, but these are the "go to, works every time" uses

This was the first little pocket Reece showed me. It's surprisingly heart wrenching to remember that. Thanks for putting it up, man
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 7:52 am     Reply with quote

Hey Chris,,,,thanks for the response. Yes, I know what you mean about the most seemingly insignificant passing thought of Reece,,,or some little thing he said. His is one of two email addresses in my contact list that I can't bring myself to delete! I think my first visit with him was shortly after your first visit,,,,,We had some great one on one early morning visits on the patio,,,,I can't start to tell you how highly he spoke of you!!

I can't believe the "theory experts" are not jumping all over this! With all the recent interest in "Blues on E9",,,"Blues on Lap Steel" etc,,,,,and the 4-5 guys that seem to have something to say about everything,,,,and the tons of implications here,,,,jeeeez,,,,you just never know,,,,LOL!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ulrich Sinn


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 8:17 am     Reply with quote

If you switch from orange to blue between C7 and F7 you can play any and every blues solo Albert, Freddie + B.B. ever played Smile

"The Stumble", right there...
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 8:47 am     Reply with quote

Yes Ulrich,,,and notice that if you move the orange pattern from 8th string to 9th string on 6th fret, you have the 1-3-5 triad of the F chord AND string 6 gives you the 6th tone,,,AND move up one fret for dom 7th,,,,

With the blues feel of these patterns,,,,plus the swing feel of the 6th tuning,,,a person can just about play all night on most gigs,,,,,no wonder the 6th tuning was the basic in beginning C-W steel guitar. And all the E9 players have to do is lower the Es and they are in a basic 6th tuning,,,,or press A and B pedals,,,,
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Christopher Woitach


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 8:57 am     Reply with quote

Thanks for telling me that, Sonny. I completely adored him.

Well, I'll get the ball rolling here

One nice move, if you're playing V to I, in this case A7altered to Dmaj, is to play that pocket (C blues) for the A7, then move it down one fret for the D. Very cool
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ken Campbell


From:
Ferndale, Montana
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 4:28 pm     Reply with quote

I would love, as a beginner, to see those same patterns written the same way for my e9. Is that even possible, and should I as a beginner be able to do that?
_________________
Morrell E13 on a Valco Alkire E-harp.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Chris Reesor


From:
British Columbia, Canada
Post Posted 24 Sep 2013 4:41 pm     E9 pockets Reply with quote

Ken, since Sonny's chart is for E9/B6 uni, all you have to do is lower your E's on 4 & 8 and there it is.
Have fun.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, Heritage H575, MIJ Squier tele, Hwy 1 Strat, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 25 Sep 2013 4:59 am     Reply with quote

Ken, Yes, just lower Es,,,,mess with it,,give it some time. All the notes are "correct",,some sound better against certain chords or progression than others,,but ALL ARE USEFUL! Like someone said earlier, blues guitar players play all night using no more than this. For someone who is anxious to play,,,to make some music, this definitely gives you something to "play".

PS,,,,just now looked in "Tabs" category and saw Alex Catteneo(?) explaining and demonstrating part of "Blame It on Your Heart" A huge part of what he is playing can be found in this scale. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=252815
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Mason


From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
Post Posted 25 Sep 2013 6:32 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
I would love, as a beginner, to see those same patterns written the same way for my e9. Is that even possible, and should I as a beginner be able to do that?


If you haven't already done so, you're going to want to generate some fretboard "map paper" - the sooner the better. There may be some already-jiggered stuff on the net, but it's real simple to do in any word-processing program. What you want is a table of about 15 X 13 cells, running the long way (landscape) on a sheet of paper. It's a few cells bigger than 12 frets X 10 strings so that you have room to write in string numbers, fret numbers, open-string notes etc.

You'll be using these every day for the rest of your life in some form (internalized?) - and rather than letting somebody else send you a completed one for E9th, you'd actually be better off filling out the notes yourself. There is substantial evidence that memories are retained much better the more "channels" of your brain they've run through* - which is why them-thar "learning gurus" advise students to re-copy their own class notes as a study tool.

Start by just filling in the no-pedal/no-knees notes of an arbitrary diatonic scale (E? Cmaj/A minor?...) The relative note distances (boxes, pockets, shapes) will remain the same from key to key. Your brain may work better envisioning the map lines as the strings, rather than the open cells - you could draw it in with a big black dot for every root note, an open circle for every third... steal some kid's colored market set, get festive... Cool

And draw a whole 'nother one for the above 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7-8 scale, another one for a simple 5-cylinder pentatonic.... hmmm, what are the notes they have in common, what are some common shapes you can move around? Pop! Pop! Pop! You can already hear those brain cells keel over dying!

*(lucky thing notes don't smell - Shocked - or we'd all be dropping heavy coinage on secret magic electronic odor-boosters!)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ken Campbell


From:
Ferndale, Montana
Post Posted 25 Sep 2013 7:31 pm     Thanks everyone. Reply with quote

This is good stuff. I am so on the map paper project



Best regards
Kc
_________________
Morrell E13 on a Valco Alkire E-harp.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dick Sexton


From:
Greenville, Ohio
Post Posted 26 Sep 2013 4:20 am     E9th Keyboard Maps... Reply with quote

There is a blank one included to get you started if you want to do your own, which I suggest. The others are mine and may or may not fit your requirements.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=594320d13092d8fb#cid=594320D13092D8FB&id=594320D13092D8FB%21160

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=594320d13092d8fb#cid=594320D13092D8FB&id=594320D13092D8FB%21410
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 26 Sep 2013 4:34 am     Reply with quote

Hey, this is one handy scale pattern. It's all over the "8 String Swing" album from Mike A., from Charleton's "Almost to Tulsa" to Stompin at the Savoy and on and on.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 26 Sep 2013 5:48 am     Reply with quote

Yes Lane,,,I have a DVD of Mike Auldridge talking about his 8 string tunings, he discusses what he calls a "snake" pattern that is VERY similar. It was also discussed at a Mike A. seminar I went to many years ago, which, I largely ignored just as I did when Jeff N. presented 25+ years ago. BIG MISTAKE!! Actually 3 different name players tried to share it with me many years ago,,,,I'm just now starting to see the HUGE value!!! Which is why I'm trying to share it here.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Mason


From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
Post Posted 26 Sep 2013 4:31 pm     Reply with quote

What Mr. Jenkins and Mr. Sexton posted are great examples of how to USE note charts to help solidify some visual information which represents a code of sorts - the same shape, on the same strings, will always depict a "hearable" relationship between the notes - basic interval training. (And you can see that Mr. Sexton is using some form of color coding!) And there's tons of information on interval training and plenty of people who can help you unload that pesky overstuffed wallet - but hammering the sounds of the intervals into your head is one thing nobody else can do for you.

I do hope you (Mr. Campbell) have some guitar or keyboard experience to build on, every bit helps. Like, another trick with the note charts would be to make one with your diatonic notes, key of C or E or whatever you choose - then copy it exactly. And then cut the copy into strips lengthwise - so when you change a string's tuning with a pedal or knee lever, you can slide the paper strip around and see what it does to the relationships among the notes. But you still need to know what major and minor triads and 4ths and 5ths and such ARE (and what they sound like!)

I do suspect this might be a hard instrument to teach, as each player consolidates their own gains into a "new normal." A couple of people above answered your initial question with "Just lower your E's and you're THERE...." To which the next obvious question is "so, now I'm there - but where is HERE?" Laughing
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kekoa Blanchet


From:
Kaua'i
Post Posted 29 Sep 2013 10:55 pm     Reply with quote

Ulrich Sinn wrote:
If you switch from orange to blue between C7 and F7 you can play any and every blues solo Albert, Freddie + B.B. ever played


This is intriguing, but I don't quite understand. I'd appreciate some clarification on just what Ulrich is saying here. Is it that the orange notes (A blues scale) fit with a C7 chord and the blue notes (C blues scale) fit with an F7 chord?

What key would the songs he's talking about be in -- are those C7 and F7 chords the I and IV of a song in C?

Which scale would you play over the other chord in the song?

Thanks for the help with this.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post Posted 30 Sep 2013 7:07 am     Reply with quote

Actually they are BOTH, separately and individually, scales that parts or combinations of, can be played over most chord progressions in the key of C. (I am spending some time now trying to see how they integrate),,,but it would be a mistake and misuse of the idea to try to use one "only" for the I,,,and one "only" for the IV in a progression. That would be severely "narrowing" the possibilities of the simplicity of each scale. My intention by presenting them together was to show how BOTH pockets, individually, could fit progressions in the same key, in this case "C". One was advocated, provided by and used by Jeff Newman, the other advocated, provided by, and used by Reece Anderson, both accomplishing the same purpose. ( I understand that Buddy Emmons also taught a similar if not the same scale that he called a "snake" scale at his C6 seminars) As with all scales, some notes sound better against certain chords than others. Practice and experiment would help to determine a player's (and listener's) preferences. They are VERY useful, not only as complete solos,,,but also as something to fall back on when "lost" in a song,,,which is why Jeff called it "Oh Boy Am I Lost" scale. The more I look at it, and play with it, the more I can see how it relates. Everything we "learn" is something that has been there, unrealized, all along,,,and I see these scales as being doors or windows to a whole room full of "unrealized" things.

I know there are those on the forum that know a lot more about theory than I (or most of us) do,,,now would be a good time for them to jump in. Com'on guys,,,let's beat it to death.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ulrich Sinn


From:
California, USA
Post Posted 30 Sep 2013 3:15 pm     Reply with quote



bar 1 + 2 Cma pentatonic
bar 3 + 4 the very same one, but as Ami pentatonic
bar 5 + 6 the Ami transposed up a mi 3rd to become Cmi pentatonic

bar 7 + 8 Cmi reshuffled so it starts descending from the F, very nicely outlining a F7 chord. We ignore the fact that the 3rd is missing from that chord.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jack Bowman


From:
Washington, USA
Post Posted 1 Oct 2013 10:05 pm     old time flashbulbs Reply with quote

I am a standard guitar thumbpicker who has been at it since I was 9.....'n that was 72 years ago. I played lap steel when I was 12-13 but dropped it and stuck with 6 string electrics. Being mostly self taught I don't and didn't see the relative connection between notes. I play by the shape of the fingers and sound of the chords...Being informally trained, musically,is a big handicap when I started the steel again. This discussion has been like old time flash bulbs going off in my head. I tried the Mooney tunings and have moved on to B6th but got it by tuning the C6th down to lose some string tension. These two old timey pedal steels that I have are limited but are rewarding me with some progress. Big question here is: Should I purse learning the B6th or E 9th necks? i am still doing gigs (solos) on standard guitar but want to sit in with a local band. What is the best neck for older country songs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S5mqc9XNoo
_________________
6x6 MultiKord x 4 pedals
Single 8 Multikord x 6 pedals
5220 Gretsch
Haiku Jazzbox Byrdland copy
Agile Brass Dobro style resonator
Godin A-6
Fender 400 PSG 4+2
buncha amps
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 2 Oct 2013 12:30 pm     Reply with quote

One of the first things a guitar player learns.
Newman was just showing the every day old worn out but still very useful switching between a C major penta add blues note and a C minor penta add blues note in a blues song. Runs amock in a lot of swing progressions
View user's profile Send private message
Kekoa Blanchet


From:
Kaua'i
Post Posted 3 Oct 2013 1:05 pm     Reply with quote

Stuart Legg wrote:
...switching between a C major penta add blues note and a C minor penta add blues note in a blues song.


OK, that makes sense now. Thanks for the concise description of what we're looking at. Even though it's "one of the first things a guitar player learns," some of us missed Step 1!

So when do you switch? Does one scale fit better over some chords within the progression and the other scale fit better with other chords?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 3 Oct 2013 8:59 pm     Reply with quote

My statement was a little harsh and not entirely true. I didn't intend it as a rebuke?
Here is just one of many examples of switching between blues scales.

View user's profile Send private message
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 3 Oct 2013 9:23 pm     Reply with quote

It sounds to me like Jerry really gets after mixing those scales. Love the sound of that old T-60 ain't it a beauty?
click here
View user's profile Send private message

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Steel Guitar Music
Instrumental steel guitar CDs for your permanent collection
www.SteelGuitarMusic.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support This Forum


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron
HTTP