INSTRUCTION STRINGS ACCESSORIES MUSIC LINKS
 Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com for Steel Guitars, Strings, Instruction, Music and Accessories 
Forum Index
where steel players meet online
The Steel Guitar Forum

Post new topic Composite Scales for PSG.
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Composite Scales for PSG.
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 26 Aug 2013 7:46 pm     Reply with quote

I though this might be worth some discussion and you could chime in with whatever wisdom you might have regarding this subject.

I heard about a minute of some horns playing some kind of jazzy blues coming from a car parked next to me and I thought man that would be neat to play those horn lines on PSG.
It seemed very chromatic but I could hear the blues scale but it seemed not to sound like it was tied down to the minor blues scale or the major blues scale.

Anyway when I got home I got my spread sheet, my little E9 neck calculator and went through my archives of online saved files to get some ideas to transcribe something like that for PSG.

I think subconsciously or consciously the horn players were weaving in and out of the two scales (the Minor Blues Scale and the Major Blues Scale) and that made it seem almost chromatic at times.
I'm thinking maybe a Composite Scale of the two scales.

So what do you think? Do you use composite Scales in your playing? Are you familiar with the use of composite scales? Or maybe you might have some interest in composite scales. Whatever….join in
Here is a neck view for the key of "A"

View user's profile Send private message
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 26 Aug 2013 8:30 pm     Reply with quote

Here is a couple of shots at it!

Audio 1
Audio 2

View user's profile Send private message
b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 26 Aug 2013 8:35 pm     Reply with quote

There's a style of blues playing that uses the major 3rd when you're on the I and the minor 3rd when you're on the IV. It also switches the b7 to the major 7 of the scale when you're on the V. In other words, in the key of C:

C: C D E F G A Bb C
F: C D Eb F G A Bb C
G: C D E F G A B C

The logic is based on playing the mixolydian scale with its root on the root note of the chord:

C7: C D E F G A Bb C
F7: F G A Bb C D Eb F
G7: G A B C D E F G
_________________
Bobby Lee, a.k.a. -b0b- (SGF Admin) ♪ "Music is not so fragile that knowledge breaks it." -Gerbergler ♪
Rice & Bean on Sierra Laptop ♪ Wine Country Swing on Desert Rose S-8 ♪ Carter D-10 ♪ Stella
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 8:12 am     Reply with quote

b0b thanks for pointing that out.
I am familiar with playing the blues as if each chord was a 7th and playing the Mixolydian scale of each of those chords. I just never thought of it in terms of the one chord being three different Modes.
However what I heard was the 1 chord sounding minor in one part and a major in another and at times seemed chromatic. So my assumption is a composite scale and I just guessed at mixing the Minor and Major Blues Scales. It seems to capture the flavor.
But again I only heard very little of the song.
View user's profile Send private message
Bo Legg


Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 8:46 am     Reply with quote

The question will come up “when you’re that close to Chromatic with your scale of choice why don’t you just play it chromatically?”

Answer: Scales sound good because of the notes you don’t play.
View user's profile Send private message
b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 8:53 am     Reply with quote

Blues often uses the 7#9 chord as the I. This puts a major 3rd in the low octave (as part of the bass line) and a minor 3rd in the upper octaves (the lead). You can think of this as a "composite scale" if you want. The lead player uses Dorian mode while the bass and rhythm players use Mixolydian.

It's very common in rockabilly. Imagine a guitarist playing A7 at the 5th fret. Then he takes a lead at the same position and suddenly the C note is in play.
_________________
Bobby Lee, a.k.a. -b0b- (SGF Admin) ♪ "Music is not so fragile that knowledge breaks it." -Gerbergler ♪
Rice & Bean on Sierra Laptop ♪ Wine Country Swing on Desert Rose S-8 ♪ Carter D-10 ♪ Stella
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Lane Gray


From:
Topeka, KS
Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 12:51 pm     Reply with quote

Which, incidentally, is how Earl wrote Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Lester played E Major when it went to the VI.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Brint Hannay


From:
Maryland, USA
Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 1:19 pm     Reply with quote

Then too one must consider the "blues third" which can be anywhere in between the major and minor thirds. Bottom line: blues is a feel, not a scale, or scales. Blues rule of thumb: Play the notes that sound good.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ron Pruter


From:
Arizona, USA
Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 3:19 pm     Reply with quote

Like Brint said. Joe Wash for one, talked about that crazy third in a article in guitar player mag. Not quite a major and not quite a miner. Somewhere in between. RP
_________________
Emmons Le Grande,SteelKing,'69 tele,'73 P bass,Tick tack bass, Alvarez nylon A/E and a Coral Sitar.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 9:22 pm     Reply with quote

Well I thought the topic would get a little further along before the blues 3rd came up in the discussion.
My approach to the composite scale encompasses the blues 3rd but doesn’t necessarily focus on it.

I’m speaking of a more expanded approach of playing the Major Blues Scale over the One chord and the Minor Blues Scale over the Four chord and one or the other over the Five chord.

This was meant to be just a beginning of getting away from playing the Minor Pentatonic continuously through the whole progression like most noobs generally have a tendency to do.

I'm really glad the Blues 3rd came up. It is important.
View user's profile Send private message
b0b


From:
Northern California
Post Posted 27 Aug 2013 10:19 pm     Reply with quote

Harry Partch lists 3 distinct JI intervals between 300 and 400 cents:

6/5 = 315.6 cents (the minor 3rd)
11/9 = 347.4 cents (the blues 3rd)
5/4 = 386.3 cents (the major 3rd)

These are the intervals that really do "sound good".
_________________
Bobby Lee, a.k.a. -b0b- (SGF Admin) ♪ "Music is not so fragile that knowledge breaks it." -Gerbergler ♪
Rice & Bean on Sierra Laptop ♪ Wine Country Swing on Desert Rose S-8 ♪ Carter D-10 ♪ Stella
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 28 Aug 2013 12:28 am     Reply with quote

b0b I take that fact into consideration when playing the 3rds and 7ths in the Tri-tone substitutions within a chord progression.

It’s about bending or sliding past the b7 about a ¼ tone hinting but not making it to the major 7 and the same for the b3rd bent or slid past hinting a major 3.

It’s flatting the 3rd slightly and raising the b7 slightly in the tri-tones

Here is a very simple example

View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Policarpo


From:
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Post Posted 28 Aug 2013 2:33 am     Reply with quote

hey, those "little" intervals sound pretty cool guys! Thanks!
_________________
Pushing a Dunlop 920 on a black Stage One ZumSteel.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stuart Legg


Post Posted 28 Aug 2013 11:48 am     Reply with quote

There is one little quirk in my composite scale.
When you break it down into sections and play the scale in 4 note sequences you really begin to notice that the b7 of the scale just doesn’t sound right. The major 7 sounds better but seems to change the whole mood of the scale.
So the b7 up a ¼ works and satisfies the mood of the scale.

View user's profile Send private message
Jim Pitman


From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
Post Posted 28 Aug 2013 2:10 pm     Reply with quote

Vermont's Grace Potter has a song called "Ride" that got some national air play. She has her way vocally with the third from minor to major and it's a hook if not a powerful high point of the tune.
I have an instrumental called Major Minor that uses the major in the base and minor in the treble like Bob mentions.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Steel Guitar Music
Instrumental steel guitar CDs for your permanent collection
www.SteelGuitarMusic.com

Jewelry by Mom
beautiful one-of-a-kind
pieces handmade by
Mrs. Lee in California

JewelryByMom.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support This Forum


Batman 4 Sale
Batman & Robin collectibles
Toys, comics & cool stuff

www.batman4sale.biz
HTTP