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Topic: Teaching PSG. |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 11:51 am |
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Way back when the teacher taught you how to read notation and you practiced note for note reading the notation. For the piano it is still pretty much that way.
But then there came along something they called tab for guitar players and that caught on with the Steel Guitar, all fretted instruments and these players naturally saw no need to learn notation.
Then of course if you see no need for notation it follows you will see no need for music theory.
Tab was somewhat like painting by numbers so there was no need for the player to learn much more than how to use tab and find a local steel player that you could give a couple of bucks to show you some licks.
Then the net came along and we no longer even want to give the local player a few bucks or pay for the tab
The process was depressing from a teachers standpoint before the net but now it’s just plain pathetic. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 12:32 pm
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No argument Stuart, with any of your points, but the other side of the coin is that there simply are NO teachers in certain areas, so learning via the internet is an attractive alternative. I think in the long run, it will yield more interest, thus more players.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 2:06 pm
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| I think steel guitar is to much hard technically to learn without a teacher, you have to have someone who can see/hear you and give tips on what to work on. To me steel is almost like golf, if you try to learn with a book or internet by yourself, good chance are that you will develop bad habits. |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 2:07 pm
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| Another is, if you don't music theory, their is no chance you can figure out this instrument! |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 2:08 pm
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| I agree with what you have said, Stuart. I'm working on getting the PSG some exposure in the local schools at the middle school level. It's interesting to note that Tab is almost as old the staff form. Lutenists often used tab as a extension of their written compositions to put a fine point on how best to play their compositions. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 2:17 pm
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There are a well informed music teachers in walking distance from you in about any town or city in the USA. There may not be a steel player in walking distance.
A music teacher and a player are two different things.
So with the feeling of no need for notation or theory to play Steel Guitar you wouldn’t expect they would warm up to a music teacher.
Even though a music teacher has a degree and a job at some high school or university they are constantly having to lobby to keep that program going because of the lack of understanding of just what a music teacher does.
Folks seem to think you can learn a little about one instrument and do the same job any music teacher does.
I think if it wasn’t for the old myth of the Mozart Effect they would stop all music classes at all educational institutes.
It is certainly dead on arrival in the PSG world. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 2:19 pm
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I agree that we should all learn to read (I can on six-string, not so well on PSG). I don't think it prevents one from thinking theory is not necessary, though, or leads inevitably to that - in fact, I'd bet casual, non-reading steel players know way more theory than casual, non-reading guitar players.
However, tab is actually much, much older than modern standard notation, having roots around 1300 for the lute and such. Modern standard notation arrived during the period of classical (true "classical") music in Europe.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 3:54 pm
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I’m sure tab has been around for ages but my only experience with it has been in guitar since everything I saw in school was notation and outside of that tab for guitar was all I saw.
I never heard during that period of time anyone saying you had to make a choice between tab or notation so I learned both. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 4:44 pm
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Using tab is a quicker and easier way for a newbie to learn to play the steel. Granted, there are no notations or time signatures, so, a basic knowledge of a specific song or phrase is a large help. I've never seen sheet music for a steel guitar and I doubt there is any. I can only imagine what it would look like and how much time it would take to decipher it. I've found that, people who've played other instruments having a musical background, have a leg up on people who've never played anything before. Regardless of tab or not. I've taught steel and most if not all, just want to be able to play the steel and not worry about the technicalities of the instrument. Maybe later on their journey, they'll delve more deeply into it. But, as beginners, I don't think they need it.
As to the Internet.... Again, I don't think the newbee will get the closeness or familiarity he gets with a teacher, coaching him as he learns. My students have played proficiently and correctly, which, is what they wanted in the first place. Theory and reading music can come later, after they learn what each pedal and knee lever does and how to apply each. |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 6:22 pm
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30 years ago when I tried to learn pedal steel, there were no teachers around here, and only two instruction books (one was just chord charts). Needless to say I gave up.
Fast forward to today, instruction material abounds, by book, CD, DVD, and Internet. Plus, I've had 30 years of music under my belt. And now, I am learning and enjoying playing pedal steel. But, there are still no teachers around here.
I do agree on one point, tab is OK, but you do need to know some music theory, as tab is not written as "playable" as sheet music. Still, it is good.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 8 Aug 2013 9:58 pm
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As you will see and hear TablEdit covers all the bases.
TablEdit has the notation with the tab and it plays the song along note for note in midi
You can upload that to BIAB and see what the tab will sound like with a band.
Best of all you don't have to buy TablEdit just to use the Tab. You would need to buy it if you wish to create and share your tab.
Just go here and down load the free "Tef View" and then you can download all TablEdit files.
click here
Here is a TablEdit file of Bo's version of the "steel guitar rag"
click here
here is what the tab taken directly from TablEdit sounds like added to a simple old BIAB style. It needs no steel player to play the tab before you can know what the tab sounds like.
Click here
Here is a jpeg of the first page of the tab just to give you an idea what it looks like. I usually show the chords but I just didn't get around to it on this one.
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 12:28 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
| Using tab is a quicker and easier way for a newbie to learn to play the steel. Granted, there are no notations or time signatures, so, a basic knowledge of a specific song or phrase is a large help. I've never seen sheet music for a steel guitar and I doubt there is any. |
Rusty Young had a book out in the late 70s/early 80s (don't recall the publisher) that used standard notation: it looked just like standard notation, and I think it just told you which pedals below the staff lines.
I liked the idea of players learning how to read, but I bet the task of learning to read on top of how to manage such a bewildering beast lowered its sales.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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George Buechley
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 5:24 am Collectors item
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Rusty's book is now a collectors item. I think it's titled 'Pedal Steel Handbook-Country Rock Pedal Steel Guitar.'
George
_________________
Pre WWII Dobro, Sho~Bud Pro II Custom, Peavey Session 115, GFI Expo, Roland Cube XL80, Lil Izzy |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 6:50 am
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Before we joined the Forum
Stuart and I made up a complete lesson plan that went from beginner thru intermediate lessons for the basic E9. We thought we were on the right track.
1. The technique portion wass an in-depth instruction of Pick Blocking Plus.
2. An in-depth study of music theory, notation, TablEdit, spreadsheet neck work sheet and BIAB.
3. Ear training exercises.
4. Transcriptions in TablEdit of how to play Country, Blues and Rock.
5. 7 steel guitars for use by students in classes and available for rental.
6. A large facility for lessons.
7. The complete lesson series beginner through intermediate to be completed in 26 hrs at 1hr per week in class plus some extra hours of homework and practice on their own time.
There would be an additional charge for books and lesson materials. There would be other of Stuarts books available.
After we joined the Forum.
Locked up the facility carted away the books, steel guitars to storage and said screw it! |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 7:44 am
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“Screw it†Bo that was real classy. You have a way with words.
Trying to teach with TablEdit and include music theory along with teaching someone to play PSG.
Akin to “OK I’m gonna teach you to play PSG but first I’m gonna kick you in the b…sâ€
We’ve pulled it all out of storage and set it all up to try again several times.
Then I go through our topics and check achieve of replies and show them the Bo and back in storage it all goes.
“Screw it†I’m sure means the last time.
Set a time limit of 26hrs to learn the complete lesson plan can not compete with
“let me show you some licks and you can look around on the net till you find something you might want to use. You don’t need spend any money study anything or strain your brain, no hurry you got the rest of your life to learn†|
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 7:57 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| John De Maille wrote: |
| Using tab is a quicker and easier way for a newbie to learn to play the steel. Granted, there are no notations or time signatures, so, a basic knowledge of a specific song or phrase is a large help. I've never seen sheet music for a steel guitar and I doubt there is any. |
Rusty Young had a book out in the late 70s/early 80s (don't recall the publisher) that used standard notation: it looked just like standard notation, and I think it just told you which pedals below the staff lines.
I liked the idea of players learning how to read, but I bet the task of learning to read on top of how to manage such a bewildering beast lowered its sales. |
I wasn't aware of Rusty's book. I might have bought it, had I known. But, having said that, I wanted to play steel and make some pleasing musical sounds, quickly. I'm always looking for instant gratification. On the other hand, I can certainly appreciate the ability to read music and apply it to the steel. But, being a country, pedal mashing steel player, I don't see the need for it in the venues I play. I do read music, but, not enough to save my life, if it depended on it. |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 8:41 am
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| In the Era people tried to communicate about music, there was no recording.Also it was a universal language for music. Things have changed. TAB alone is a poor way for communication in music, also only recording. I am with you that musictheory is the basic you need to learn to understand music. But staffreading in the old way isn't neccesarry to me, as long as there are other ways to interpretate music as it is ment by the composer or to exchange. regards, Johan |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 9:15 am
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I agree with JJ. Reading notation and learning music theory are two different things. I used to read for several instruments but found that my skills improved more by focusing on theory and ear training. Never been handed a piece of sheet music for a gig but see and use number charts a lot.
Kind of reminds me of a friend's story about his first gig as a pianist when he was 15 (after joining the union) in Kansas City. He was holding down the piano spot for some ex Basie players on a big new year's eve gig and trying to sight read every note on all these old Basie arrangements. After the first set, the band leader came over and said, "Hey kid, you don't gotta play all them notes like they is on the paper. Just hang with the groove." |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 10:18 am
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Wouldn’t it be nice if we could have the tab with correct notation above it and midi of the notes to accompany it all following along note for note and
it would be so accurate that you could even take the midi from it and make an arrangement in BIAB so you can hear what it would sound like in different styles or chord arrangements.
What a miracle that would be but I guess we’ll all just be sht out of luck if someone can’t come up with a copy of Rusty’s extinct notation tab. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 10:48 am
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Ring a ding……….
Hello
I calling you today regarding my application for employment with your company.
Let me start off by saying I never learn anymore than I absolutely have to, to do the job.
Click! |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 11:07 am
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Music teacher? PSG teacher? I wouldn't want to be you.
Well Bo thank goodness for the For Sale: Steel guitars section. |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 12:02 pm
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| I get it Bo. No need to rub it in. There's a lot to learn in all of life and I can't learn it all so I chose to let my sightreading slide in pursuit of other knowledge. Priorities. Everyone has to choose and make compromises in how they spend their time and effort. |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 3:24 pm
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| Having taught PSG and 6 string for 30 years I conclude there is no getting around the physical hurdle, from the outset, of both instruments. Starting fron zero it's so much easier for a beginner to play a C note one octave below middle C. Press the key and there it is. Fret the 5th string on the 3rd fret of a guitar; not so easy. All newbies on fretted instuments face this challenge. Reading music, understanding theory, are not imprtant when starting out. Have we all not noticed that guitar players learn backward? The same is true for PSG. You have to get something going first. Stuart and Bo, your method is highly refined and something to be proud of. I'm impressed by your work. Thing is it's more geared toward the intermediate and advanced player. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 3:50 pm
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meh... Looked at what the notes were, figured out within a few minutes that A and b pedal made the 1 to 4 change and that the a pedal alone and b and c pedals were the relative minors therof.. Threw on some New Riders, learned Panama Red, and bingo, instant pedal steel player!!,, Dont laugh that snarky attitude on steel served me well for decades, and still does..
Teacher?.. I don't need no stinkin' teacher!..... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Hans Penner
From:
Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 9 Aug 2013 8:46 pm
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Bob, I envy you if you figured out everything PSG and then Panama Red in a relatively short time period. If I can play that song a year from now I will . . . Be very pleased. (NRPS are the reason I am learning the PSG) I started cold 2 years ago. For 1 1/2 years I bumbled along. Yes, tried that free internet lesson stuff too. Then I began lessons with an LA instructor. I have only benefitted as a result. The school of hard knocks is WAY more expensive then paying up front to be taught. And, I, still very green, have found theory to be useful in understanding the steel. And, very important, it has permitted me to communicate musically with my sons, all of whom play several instruments, but none play PSG.
_________________
At long last, July 14, 2011 and I have a musical instrument I CAN play.
Stage One, Nashville 112, Hilton pedal, Black Box |
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