| Author |
Topic: Someone Please Get Me A REAL STEEL GUITAR! |
Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 4 Jan 2013 11:44 am |
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I have never owned a double 10 and I know what Zane is talking about. In the past, I always felt that people never considered me a "Pro" player because I played a single neck (12 string universal)guitar with fewer pedals. Never mind the fact that I could play all the "sounds" of a D-10, and even come up with sounds that are not possible on a D-10.
This feeling came mostly from other steel players and rarely from many of the great musicians I have played with in my lifetime.
That being said, I believe that has changed in today's music realm. Now there are many great single neck players who are appreciated for they way they play and sound, not what they play.
_________________
Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Jan 2013 2:11 pm
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| Albert Svenddal wrote: |
| I always felt that people never considered me a "Pro" player because I played a single neck (12 string universal)guitar with fewer pedals. |
Albert, I always considered you pro player. But I have to warn you, I love when you play with a hard boiled egg, but some day I'm going to break into your paca-seat and switch it for a raw one. 
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Jay Riddle
From:
Pennsboro, W.V.
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 8:15 am Single Neck
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| You sound great Zane and I always believe in doing your own thing in all aspects of life! I want to come up with something unique someday that is my particular tuning as well. I play the Nashville tuning at present. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 8:25 am
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Steel players are the only ones who notice that my 8-string Desert Rose is "deficient". Most people are impressed by the 5 pedals and 5 knee levers. It's a real pedal steel, no doubt.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 8:40 am
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Hey Zane good thread. If you want to browse some copedents hit links in the top right corner of your screen, then open the page called copedents. There are quite a few, but one that is noticebly missing is Zane King's modified ZB tuning!
Cheers
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 9:13 am
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I do remember Chris Ivey saying on here once that he always knew he wanted to learn both necks because he didn't want to be "half a steel player." Link: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2091368&sid=5183ef940147872860a40de97453cd3f
I'm still a relative newcomer to the game, having only started playing in 2009, and only playing E9, but it seems to me the various histories of the instrument I read all agree that D-10s and D-12s were necessitated, at least in part, by the lack of mechanics and other modernizations that could put all the sounds on one neck. I know many say that a U tuning makes you lose a little of both, but would you say a guitarist is not a true guitarist if he/she can't, say, play a song in a certain alternate tuning?
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 11:15 am
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
Hey Zane good thread. If you want to browse some copedents hit links in the top right corner of your screen, then open the page called copedents. There are quite a few, but one that is noticebly missing is Zane King's modified ZB tuning!
Cheers |
Those copedent pages are mostly remnants from my original web site. I stopped updating them when The Steel Guitar Forum became popular.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 12:41 pm
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Haven't we forgotten the late and great Winnie Winston? Built his own steel (single neck), innovative style and wrote the book which kicked off at least a couple of generations of steel-players.
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 1:54 pm
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I'm a hacker on both C6th and E9th. That said, I do remember one pretty famous player whose comment was "Whenever you try to combine both tunings into one, you'll always lose a little of each". Of course, that doesn't explain why people have a problem with someone who has pretty well mastered both to be more highly esteemed? I mean, if I played a single neck, and was worried about double-neck players getting more attention, why should I not move up to their level, instead of wishing they'd them come down to mine? I may be wrong, but I see it as just common sense that it's harder to learn two different tunings than it is to learn just one. Doesn't that sorta make sense (to most of you)?
I have yet to hear any single neck player say that he chose the single neck because it was harder than learning a double neck. 
Let me put it another way: One guy is an expert shot with a pistol, while another guy is equally expert with a pistol, but he's also an expert with a rifle.
Now, which one would be more likely relied upon, and held in more esteem as an "expert"?
In closing, I'll just repeat what I said a couple of years ago...it's not the instrument, it's the player! |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 2:04 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I'm a hacker on both C6th and E9th. That said, I do remember one pretty famous player whose comment was "Whenever you try to combine both tunings into one, you'll always lose a little of each". Of course, that doesn't explain why people have a problem with someone who has pretty well mastered both to be more highly esteemed? I mean, if I played a single neck, and was worried about double-neck players getting more attention, why should I not move up to their level, instead of wishing they'd them come down to mine? I may be wrong, but I see it as just common sense that it's harder to learn two different tunings than it is to learn just one. Doesn't that sorta make sense (to most of you)?
I have yet to hear any single neck player say that he chose the single neck because it was harder than learning a double neck.
Let me put it another way: One guy is an expert shot with a pistol, while another
guy is equally expert with a pistol, but he's also an expert with a rifle.
Now, which one would be more likely relied upon, and held in more esteem as an "expert"?
In closing, I'll just repeat what I said a couple of years ago...it's not the instrument, it's the player! |
Donny, I had the same thing said to me years ago by one of the best steel players of his time. He played a triple neck steel at the time. He came to town with an Opry star. My brother got me in to meet him. When I told him I played pedal steel you should have seen how high his noise went. He said something about cheating and I needed to get a real steel guitar. I though at first he was joking, but he was not.
He didn't understand why some of his peers were going to only double neck guitars and then to make matters worse adding pedals and knee levers. He felt this was cheating and making the steel easier to play. Maybe so, but the guys that did this came up with something totally different and new. I think you see the same thing going on now with guys only playing singal neck guitars, regardless of the number of strings or the tuning. I think the steel is headed to a single tuning as music changes. I don't think it will come from someone that has spent years learning two tunings. But from some one starting on a single neck guitar. Then exspanding it to get all they need or want. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 5:53 pm
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| Bob, I really don't think that most D10 players look down their noses at players of single necks. But on the other hand, I don't think they look up to them, either, as players, or as saviors of the instrument. People just do what they do. I get the sense that a D10 instrument was considered pretty "standard", at one time. And, i can see that a single neck is anything but. How many strings should it have? What kind of tuning should it feature? Does it need lock levers? Does it need wrist levers? You see, as long as there's no concensus on these things, then a single neck just ain't gonna be considered as a "standard", or as something that's gonna simplify learning and playing. I think one of the big reasons that 6-string guitar is so popular is that it's players have, as a whole, resisted adding strings and changing tunings "to make it do more". |
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Floyd Lowery
From:
Deland, Florida, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 4:16 am
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This reminds me of the story of Curly putting C6 on his top neck because the record producer kept wanting him to use that neck. Most of the musicians and all of the audience have no idea what tuning you are using. One fellow I quit playing with told me I would do better if I used E9 tuning. I had tried to explain the universal tuning I was using when I went to work with him, and all he heard was B6. He did like to use names of stars he had played with in Nashville.
_________________
Carter 12 string 4petals 5knees, Mullen G2 3 petals 4 knees
Alesis QuadraVerb, Goodrich Match-Bro II
Peavy Nashville 400 & Session 500 |
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Brett Day
From:
Pickens, SC
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 5:56 am
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| I play a Jackson BlackJack Custom single neck, ten string |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 9:13 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I'm a hacker on both C6th and E9th. That said, I do remember one pretty famous player whose comment was "Whenever you try to combine both tunings into one, you'll always lose a little of each". Of course, that doesn't explain why people have a problem with someone who has pretty well mastered both to be more highly esteemed? I mean, if I played a single neck, and was worried about double-neck players getting more attention, why should I not move up to their level, instead of wishing they'd them come down to mine? I may be wrong, but I see it as just common sense that it's harder to learn two different tunings than it is to learn just one. Doesn't that sorta make sense (to most of you)?
I have yet to hear any single neck player say that he chose the single neck because it was harder than learning a double neck.
Let me put it another way: One guy is an expert shot with a pistol, while another guy is equally expert with a pistol, but he's also an expert with a rifle.
Now, which one would be more likely relied upon, and held in more esteem as an "expert"?
In closing, I'll just repeat what I said a couple of years ago...it's not the instrument, it's the player! |
I picked U12 because the concept intrigued me and because based on Larry Bell's webpage, it wasn't that different from a doubleneck. I am an engineer and elegance matters to me. Lower part count almost always means elegance. A U13 with enough raises and lowers would lose nothing and I have a "D string" if I need it on a 12.
For a while, I just tied the "B6" ( E lower ) lever down and bashed on B6 but *lately*, I'm starting to use it as "one big tuning". Sure, most tunes are pure E9 but I'll sneak in the other pedals now and again. And I'll use the A pedal or B pedal with the E's down.
For example, I have three ways to do a dom7 - E+B, E+5 and LKR ( which lowers 2 & 9 both to D ). For a given bar position, one's a Vdom7 and the other two are Idom7.
There's also a lotta ExtE9 in a U12.
I can't speak to "esteem" - it's not even on my radar. Folks I play with like what I do and that's all that matters. You are either there to serve the Muse or you are not; I find that players who are there to serve the Muse are worth dealing with no matter how limited their vocabulary or repertoire. |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 1:08 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Bob, I really don't think that most D10 players look down their noses at players of single necks. But on the other hand, I don't think they look up to them, either, as players, or as saviors of the instrument. People just do what they do. I get the sense that a D10 instrument was considered pretty "standard", at one time. And, i can see that a single neck is anything but. How many strings should it have? What kind of tuning should it feature? Does it need lock levers? Does it need wrist levers? You see, as long as there's no concensus on these things, then a single neck just ain't gonna be considered as a "standard", or as something that's gonna simplify learning and playing. I think one of the big reasons that 6-string guitar is so popular is that it's players have, as a whole, resisted adding strings and changing tunings "to make it do more". |
Danny, I belive at one time the triple neck was consider standard also. The innovators of tommorw will determine how many strings, how many pedals, even the tuning. Just as Buddy, Jimmy, and others did in their day. I love a BC pedal lick as much as the next guy. But, check out Robert Randolph's following. They'er all 20 somethings, for the most part. While Robert can play country licks on his tuning you never hear them on stage. Robert is a single neck player and the young guys are eating it up.
I love C6th playing but when was the last time you heard a hit record with C6th, I can't remember when. So why would a young guy spend years to learn C6th when he will never have an opportunity to play it on stage? I'm just asking. If Buddy had said back in the day, "well the triple neck is the standard and I don't see anyone adding pedals or levers to a double neck to get the same sounds as a triple neck and then some." would we have this wonderful insturment we all love today. There hasn't been much innovation in the last few years, like there was in the first few years of the pedal steel. But we don't need to discourage innovation or experimentation just because the double 10 seems to be the standard. Who knows what may come out of it. Just maybe something we will love even more. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 1:52 pm
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| bob drawbaugh wrote: |
| There hasn't been much innovation in the last few years, like there was in the first few years of the pedal steel. But we don't need to discourage innovation or experimentation just because the double 10 seems to be the standard. Who knows what may come out of it. Just maybe something we will love even more. |
Bob, I don't want to discourage innovation either, but simply adding more and more strings, pedals, and levers (to either a single neck or a double neck) soon goes from "innovation" to "complication". Eventually, you reach a point of diminishing returns. The instrument gets harder to build, harder to tune, adjust, and learn, and also more expensive...and none of that bodes well for it's future.
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Dick Hitchcock
From:
Wayne, Nebraska
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 2:47 pm
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Zane....I have to add these two....Fred Justice, and David Hartley....Just because they play my favorite steel, and they're awfully darned good....
_________________
Justice Pro Lite 4x5.... NV112.... Steel seat. |
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bob drawbaugh
From:
scottsboro, al. usa
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Posted 17 Sep 2014 4:21 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| bob drawbaugh wrote: |
| There hasn't been much innovation in the last few years, like there was in the first few years of the pedal steel. But we don't need to discourage innovation or experimentation just because the double 10 seems to be the standard. Who knows what may come out of it. Just maybe something we will love even more. |
Bob, I don't want to discourage innovation either, but simply adding more and more strings, pedals, and levers (to either a single neck or a double neck) soon goes from "innovation" to "complication". Eventually, you reach a point of diminishing returns. The instrument gets harder to build, harder to tune, adjust, and learn, and also more expensive...and none of that bodes well for it's future.
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Donny, I think we may agree more than you think. Jeff Newman once shared a story in an interview. Fran over heard a guy in the crowd say man he would be good if he had a real guitar. He was playing a single 10 3X3 at the time. He related a few years before he was playing a double 12 and couldn't play anything. So more for the sake of more isn't the answer either. Most players are hackers like you and I and will never learn two tunings well enough to be called a Pro, or one tuning for that matter. It's like dating two women you never really get to know either. Not that I have or would date two women at the same time. LOL So for most people I think it's better to take one tuning and get all you can out of it. The 12 string tuning, whatever the flavor, seems to be the best way to do that. IMHO Your milage may vary. |
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Jerry Fessenden
From:
Vermont, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2014 11:03 am real guitar
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| I think the diatonic tuning that Gary Adams and Doug Jernigan came up with has a lot of potential. If you watch either of them play it ,notice how little they move around. |
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Asa Brosius
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Posted 20 Sep 2014 5:56 pm
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i can't speak to the notion that single necker's get less respect (what does that actually mean? where does that occur?)- i've never heard of or encountered that. however, for the sake of discussion, here are two thoughts:
-in my experience, eventually learning the c6th neck on a d10 has made me a much better e9 player- an expanded musical vocabulary, comfort with broader grips, working within a bigger sonic range, and access to another world of practice material/inspiration = more hours with picks and the bar.
-history. the c6 neck is a distinct sound of the psg (of course e9 can mimic it, but the 2 necks undeniably can do unique things in unique ranges). on this forum, and most other places it seems, people want steel guitar to sound like it did before, what they're accustomed to. Ask any stranger on the street to describe a pedal steel guitar- its a D10 every time. That's a joke...we all know no one knows what these are.
Personally, I'm impressed by people who do more with less- recently Rob Ickes dynamic 135135-tuned dobro playing with Three Ring Circle blew my mind, as a player.
Last edited by Asa Brosius on 24 Sep 2014 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Sep 2014 4:48 am
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| bob drawbaugh wrote: |
| While Robert can play country licks on his tuning you never hear them on stage. Robert is a single neck player and the young guys are eating it up. |
Well, I think it's pretty evident they're "eating it up" because of his stage presence and his music - not because he's playing a single neck pedal steel. 
| Quote: |
| I love C6th playing but when was the last time you heard a hit record with C6th, I can't remember when. |
I don't think I've heard a hit record, country or otherwise, with a steel intro in over 15 years...in any tuning. That reflects only on the narrow-mindedness and the formulaic approach of the producers and singers we have nowadays, not the instrument.
McMusic, anyone?
(I sorta believe that the shortage of really capable young players isn't helping either.) |
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