INSTRUCTION STRINGS ACCESSORIES MUSIC LINKS
 Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com for Steel Guitars, Strings, Instruction, Music and Accessories 
Forum Index
where steel players meet online
The Steel Guitar Forum

Post new topic Close this up b0b! thx!
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
Author Topic:  Close this up b0b! thx!
Kenny Martin


From:
Chapin, S.C. USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 9:34 am     Reply with quote

I thought i would post this question for a few reasons and one most recent reason.

Playing live and also now that i'm playing some big shows i was asked why i didn't learn a tune like the original."Fire on the mountain" is one example. I kick it off like it was originally done but other than that i play what i want in the rest of it when i'm with MTB.

Now playing the Opry at Bill's between MTB i was asked again after i backed up a singer that did "They call me the fireman" by AJ the same question. A 3 or 4 year learning steel player told me i didn't play it like Paul Franklin.
Wow, that kind of made me think i did something wrong to Paul Franklin but then again, i didn't want to play it just like the original. I love Paul Franklin! Trust me!
So since i've been asked a few times i wondered if its wrong to not sit down and learn a cover tune lick for lick!

A few times i have sent PM to pros asking about a specific leads they played because i wanted to play it exactly like they did. Not many but a few!

"King of broken hearts" is one that Paul Franklin responded openly to on how he played the original cut and i learned it as close as i could. It is pretty cool but i learned a long time ago that i will never phrase and or put the emotion that the original player did on the cut, so i learned it but over time i added and or changed it to my thoughts, my emotion and my Phrasing.
Same with Tommy White and learning his lead on "Back Roads" by the Cox Family. I listened and played what i thought he played but over time i play it a little different. Again i love Tommy White! Trust me!

After playin a set at a steel show i was told i was playing a tune wrong but what i played was good. Was it wrong since i put my feelings on it? Sad

Alright forum butt kickers, give me your feel on this! Razz
_________________
www.youtube.com/krmsr59


Last edited by Kenny Martin on 22 Feb 2012 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jim Bob Sedgwick


From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 9:40 am     Reply with quote

Tell them to hire Paul or Tommy if they want it exactly like the record. You are not Paul or Tommy or Buddy or Lloyd, and you will never play exactly like them no matter how hard you try. JMO Neutral
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark van Allen


From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 9:48 am     Reply with quote

Kenny, a great question and certainly something to ponder. On the "copy" side, learning anybody's licks and style note for note is certainly good for one's chops. And there are certain songs where the steel part is so recognizable as to be a dominant part in the song, you're almost letting down the audience by leaving it out.
But for most performance, didn't we get into this to play the instrument, and express ourselves musically?

While I do admire musical chameleons who can replicate many styles and licks exactly, I come from the mindset that music is a living thing- and the whole object of "live" is to create and involve the listeners in the synergy of the moment. I've turned down quite a few gigs that required absolute note-for-note rote repetition of recordings. Just not for me.
My favorite are the several times I've been taken to task for not exactly copying my own licks when playing with bands I've recorded with. Smile
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Alan Brookes


From:
Brummy living in the San Francisco Bay Area
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 9:53 am     Reply with quote

If I were only allowed to play a tune like the original I would never be allowed to play. Laughing
I've been trying the replicate Johnny Farina's rendition of Sleepwalk, the way he played it, for over fifty years now. Embarassed Rolling Eyes Laughing
_________________
http://steelguitar.ning.com/profile/AlanFBrookes
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Todd Brown


From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:02 am     Reply with quote

Kenny, I kinda fall in the middle on this one. If I'm seeing a band live that's playing original songs, I kinda like to hear the songs as they were recorded. It's just what were used to hearing. So in your situation with MTB, Fire on the Mountain, for example, I would wanna hear it like Toy Caldwell played it on the recording. Again, it's just what I'm used to hearing. It's what would sound right. Improvising on fills is no big deal, but I would be looking for the signature steel parts to match the record.

As far as other shows, when your playing with Mandy Addy and the band from Bill's doing covers and such, I wouldn't expect to hear a break or intro exactly like Paul Franklin, or Tommy White played it. In my opinion that situation calls for more room to play what you feel.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jim Cohen


From:
Philadelphia, PA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:06 am     Reply with quote

My ('umble) opinion on this is that you (try to) play any signature licks (intro, ending, any signature fills, etc.) close to the original, and after that you're on your own to express yourself musically as you see fit. Unless you're working with an artist who prides themself on reinterpreting these songs in a different way. Then you can really have some leeway.
_________________

www.JimCohen.com
www.SteelGuitarJazz.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dave Grafe


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:16 am     Reply with quote

I would venture that even the original players would not play note-for-note what they had played on the recording. I always try to learn as much of the original parts as possible but that does not mean that I will always play them that way on stage. As an old friend once counselled me, "know what the law is so that you can break it intelligently" Cool
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Roger Kelly


From:
Georgia, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:19 am     Reply with quote

Kenny, if you happen to back up a recording artist that has a signature song...it would be good to be able to play it like it was recorded, if possible. Other than that, stay as close to the melody as you can or if rehearsed, play it like you rehearsed it.

Hal Rugg cut most, if not all, of Loretta Lynn's hits
but Bob Hempker played with her on the road for 20 years and it would be hard to tell Bob from Hal.

I've had singers who want to sing one with the band call off "Crazy Arms" and would ask me if I could kick it off like the record....I'd usually say, if you can sing it like Ray Price.. I can! Smile
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Todd Brown


From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:23 am     Reply with quote

Think of it from the consumers point of view. The records are what brought them out to the live show. They came to hear the songs as they know them and have heard them. Some bands play everything off the cuff live, that's fine, you have to be on top of your game to pull this off successfully, but I tend to wanna hear it as I know it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jack Stoner


From:
Inverness, Fl, Formerly KC, MO
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 10:29 am     Reply with quote

I do some signature licks (to my humble ability) but otherwise I play it like Jack Stoner.

The exception was a job I did with Ray Pillow. He had a new CD out and wanted to do most of those songs on the show. We were sent the CD and charts for each song which also were marked where each lead instrument played and apparently were the actual charts for the session. The Opry staff band did the recording session. I worked on trying to do the Tommy White licks on the songs. We had a couple of rehersals, just our band and then a rehersal with Ray the day before the show.

Some songs need to have the identity and others do not. Like Johnny Cash songs, they need "Luther" guitar licks.
_________________
R.O.P.E. Member
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dave Hopping


From:
Colorado, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 11:12 am     Reply with quote

Sure...If what you do is BETTER than what PF,Moon,BE,Lloyd,Hal,Pete,Russ Pahl,Bruce Bouton and all the others played on the session,knock youself out.

Just like somebody writing better words to "Crazy Arms". Rolling Eyes
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ben Lawson


From:
Hillsborough N.J.
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 12:17 pm     Reply with quote

This is a very interesting post. I've heard Ray Price sing different words on songs that he recorded originally. Not major changes but a word here and there. I think when a song is current it might be best to try to "play it like the record" but after a while even the artist that recorded it changes things a bit. I worked with a few singers that had national hits and we played things close to the original but with some leeway. As long as what you do doesn't mess up the singer(s) and stays within the context of the song most people won't even notice. Of course there are some listeners who will tell you that the song was played two beats per minute too fast or slow. You can't win 'em all.
With all that said, in a cover band, Fire on the Mountain might be played taking liberties. With MTB you might want to play it closer to the original. I'm sure some of the folks on this forum could play it better than the original but it's usually just other steel players that would appreciate it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ransom Beers


Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 12:32 pm     Reply with quote

Is it wrong not to play the original:

My take,listen to Paul Franklin backing Dawn Sears on Vern Gosdin's " If you're gonna do me wrong,do it right",not the way it was played on the original,Alan Jackson doing Jim Ed Browns:"Pop-A-Top' not original the way it was first recorded,so to not play like the original to me it's ok as long as it sticks to the melody lines as close to the original as a player can get.I've been asked the same question & I tell em'"I don't play commercial,if you want commercial go hire the guy that did it on the record.
View user's profile Send private message
Stephan Franck


From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 12:39 pm     Reply with quote

Dave Hopping wrote:
Sure...If what you do is BETTER than what PF,Moon,BE,Lloyd,Hal,Pete,Russ Pahl,Bruce Bouton and all the others played on the session,knock youself out.

Just like somebody writing better words to "Crazy Arms". Rolling Eyes


That's kind of a really weird answer to a very legitimate question...

Of course, the signature licks have to be there in some form that satisfies the audience. But in live situations, even when the idea of the lick is there, you never really hear it played exactly like the record.

First, I think Kenny is right regarding phrasing. It's a very personal thing that is almost impossible to duplicate exactly--especially when you're copying master players who are so far past any technical obstacle, that their playing is 100% second nature and straight from their own soul.

Second, those licks are not played in the vacuum. You have to account for the rhythm section, who are not robots either. All it takes is for the tempo or the feel to be just a tad different, and what was a great lick will not land the same way at all.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dick Sexton


From:
Greenville, Ohio
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 1:46 pm     Hi Kenny... Reply with quote

Man I wish I could play like Poppa John or Paul Franklin or you, but I can't even play like myself, twice in a row...

Keep on keeping on, brother... Very Happy
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Dave Hopping


From:
Colorado, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 2:20 pm     Reply with quote

@Ransom-the covers you mention were all done by name artists;the versions they did were all produced at heavy expense because the money folks thought it was worth the bet they were making.In the cases of the Sears and Jackson covers they were right.In the cases of Alabama doing "Sweet Home" and whoever did that cover of "Someday Soon",they weren't.Nobody's perfect.

I should imagine that a bandleader who was told "I don't do commercial.If you want commercial.." et cetera,probably wouldn't call any of the session players on the original tracks;he'd just go down his list of local steel players until he found one that DID "do commercial",hire him,and most likely lose the number of the guy who didn't "do commercial".
It'd be "weird" if he didn't.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bob Carlucci


From:
Candor, New York, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 2:24 pm     Reply with quote

... Listen to a studio CD of a band or artist that features a steel player.. Listen to several songs..


Listen to the same band or artist, same songs, with the same steel player, except on a live recording or some live youtube videos..
Most likely, the same player, with the same band or artist, will only play a few cliche's the same live as he did on the studio album.. The rest will be whatever he feels at the moment he plays it... Do the same.. If someone doesn't like it, smile and offer him your picks and bar, and a seat behind your horn... bob...
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Billings


From:
Ohio, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 2:29 pm     Reply with quote

If I had to play songs the same way every night, I would have completely lost interest, and retired much sooner than I did. I play because I want to express myself, not imitate someone else! Signature licks? Maybe,,, sometimes,,, I was lucky I guess. I played in a band for many years doing 5 to 7 night a week house gigs. They liked the way I played. Never heard a complaint from a band member, nor the audience. I just zone out. Nothing was the same twice in a row.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Barry Blackwood


Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 2:35 pm     Reply with quote

It's been my experience that there will always be a very small faction that will be disappointed if you didn't play it exactly like the original. If their opinion is that important to you, then play it like they want, otherwise, I'd say it's your call, my man. Cool
View user's profile Send private message
Todd Brown


From:
W. Columbia , South Carolina
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 2:53 pm     Reply with quote

One example: Robbie Flint plays almost every phrase live, with Alan Jackson, just as Paul Franklin played in the studio.

I wouldn't say it's right or wrong. I'm actually anticipating Kenny, and MTB playing in Columbia in April. With "Fire on the Mountain", I know it'll sound good no matter how he plays it. I can understand it being such a classic, recognizable song, that they might want you to do something a little closer to the record. Just my opinion, I think the steel break on that is just as recognizable as the intro.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Donny Hinson


From:
Balto., Md. U.S.A.
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 3:01 pm     pitchy Reply with quote

I was sorta of the opinion that anything you could do to FOTM would be an improvement. Wink
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dave Hopping


From:
Colorado, USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 3:07 pm     Re: pitchy Reply with quote

Donny Hinson wrote:
I was sorta of the opinion that anything you could do to FOTM would be an improvement. Wink


If ONLY they'd had Auto-Tune for instruments back in the day!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kenny Martin


From:
Chapin, S.C. USA
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 3:09 pm     Reply with quote

Todd,
The kick off and lead is played so close that most couldn't tell the difference other than i have a different tone. The fills and everything else is me. Luckily Doug Gray founding member loves what I play and told me Mr. Caldwell would have loved to sit with me and play. I would him also!

As for getting what you pay to hear? Well a few have said it, when you see the original artist live with the original steel player they play close to the signature lick but more times than not unless it's TV, they play what they feel with some of the same licks.
I wouldn't even think about asking for my money back if Buck Reid, Tommy White or Paul Franklin didn't play the licks I paid for. No offense!

I agree that kicking off "Look at us" should be done as close to the cut as possible. It just wouldn't sound right but with that said, I've heard "Heartaches by the number" kicked off so many different ways I forgot how the original was done. The best kickoff I ever heard was Paul Franklin on Austin City Limits with Mel Tillis. It made me go learn it.
I'll kick back and hear what you guys have to say cause I can count on you guys kicking butt for sure.
_________________
www.youtube.com/krmsr59
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kevin Hatton


From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 3:44 pm     Reply with quote

It depends on who is hiring you, who is your target audience, and what the band is trying to accomplish. If you go see George Strait you will here played as recorded. Different acts require different things.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post Posted 20 Feb 2012 4:16 pm     Reply with quote

Playing cover tunes implies playing it close, as close as you can.That's why we are called cover bands...

We have had countless conversations with regard to playing it like the record or playing it your own way. Me, I say play it like the record if you can, it does two things, it keeps the song recognizable with signature phrases and teaches the player how to find the stuff they hear on records. I play in a cover band, we play it close but we also stretch...

Here's a few examples to think about..

Sleepwalk, as mentioned above, do you play it close or something totally different ?

Wonderful Tonight..do you play the hook phrases or something else ? Do you do your own thing ?

Together Again, The phrases or your own thing ?


It doesn't have to be perfect , it should just be be recognizable, nobody expects it to be Paul, Loyd or Buddy exactly...

That being said, once we cover some of the signature parts we should also open up and play a bit...
_________________
For quality Steel Guitar learning materials/sound files and for information regarding "E-Sessions" please visit me at www.tprior.com and @ www.facebook.com Tony Prior


Last edited by Tony Prior on 21 Feb 2012 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Steel Guitar Music
Instrumental steel guitar CDs for your permanent collection
www.SteelGuitarMusic.com

Jewelry by Mom
beautiful one-of-a-kind
pieces handmade by
Mrs. Lee in California

JewelryByMom.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 South Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Support This Forum


Batman 4 Sale
Batman & Robin collectibles
Toys, comics & cool stuff

www.batman4sale.biz
HTTP