| Author |
Topic: best/safest lubrication? |
Susan Conway
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2011 1:43 pm |
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| Ned McIntosh wrote: |
| An annual flushing with naptha (lighter-fluid to us Aussies) followed by re-oiling around the changer, roller-nut and moving parts in the undercarriage will go a long way to keeping your steel playing as smooth as butter. |
Thanks Ned,
You mention, along with a few other people, to perform a flush with naptha (lighter fluid). Would you be able to explain your method for flushing the parts so I can better understand?
Much thanks!
Susan |
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Susan Conway
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2011 1:51 pm
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| Carl Kilmer wrote: |
The only thing I use is Tri-Flow. I got it at Wal-Mart,
but they don't carry it anymore, so I need a new source.
Carl |
Thanks Karl,
I found some at a local bike shop and also at Ace Hardware Store today. Ace had it for $1.50 less than the bike shop!
Susan |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2011 9:13 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
I also have used Tri-flow or other Teflon lubricants for years.
And ONLY the dry type. The mineral oil version gums up the works like most any oil, as it attracts and hold dirt. The paraffin used is not the stuff you would think of (like candle wax) - it's a harder material used as a binder for the Teflon...
My primary steel is a 59-ish, heavily modified 8-pedal, 2-knee Fender 400 with cables, pedal rod levers one large and numerous small pulleys and a changer that has a scissor-like mechanism for each string with sliding plates. |
Jim,
However well-intentioned, your advice in this matter is quite misguided. Here's why.
I don't believe that 1959 Fenders had roller-nuts-- isn't that correct?
Assuming that they do not have roller-nuts, then the paraffin in the so-called "dry" TriFlow may not create a problem for you-- in fact it might be better as you say.
However, most people with steel guitars more recent than 1959 DO have roller-nuts, each with perhaps only a 0.003" side clearance. (BTW, 0.003" is about the thickness of a human hair.)
The so-called "dry" TriFlow was designed for use with bicycles so that a thick protective coat of paraffin would be formed on top of the Teflon to protect it from mud and dirt on the gears and chain. Bicycle gears and chains obviously have much wider clearances than 0.003" and much more force being applied to them than the slight force of a string trying to return to pitch.
Do you see why the so-called "dry" version of TriFlow loaded up with paraffin to make a thick protective coating does NOT make sense for steel guitars with roller-nuts?
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The reason why I refer to it as "so-called dry" TriFlow is that both formulations (standard and "dry")are applied wet, and in both cases the chemical that "transports" the Teflon evaporates in a few hours, leaving only a "dry", slippery film of Teflon behind.
In other words, the standard TriFlow is just as dry as the so-called "dry" TriFlow. (Read the information on the Tri-Flow website.)
The ONLY difference between the two formulations is that the TriFlow labelled as "dry" and usually sold in bike shops is loaded with paraffin-- the enemy of roller nuts trying to help the string return to pitch.
Anyone who has roller-nuts on their steel guitars (probably 98% of us) should avoid the "dry" TriFlow like the plague (or should that be "plaque" in this case?).
BTW, I can tell you from personal experience that you are quite incorrect in your description of the paraffin in the "dry" TriFlow-- it is EXACTLY like candle wax. I was scrubbing little blobs of wax out of my roller-nut and axles for about 25 minutes after my disastrous experiment with the TriFlow "dry" bicycle formulation a few years ago.
Do you now understand why "dry" TriFlow should not be used on steel guitars with roller-nuts?
- Dave
p.s. For diplomacy's sake, I will not mention whose advice on the SGF it was that convinced me to try the "dry" TriFlow that created such a problem for me... |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 31 Dec 2011 10:19 am
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This topic has been hashed and rehashed... 
Im finding that my Mullen G2s require minimal lubrication, and then MAYBE once a year or so. I certainly agree with the idea that paraffin wax should be avoided at all costs.
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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George Seymour
From:
Notown, Vermont, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2011 10:36 am
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Years ago Jeff Newman recommended "Liquid Wrench",
still around...after speaking about the destruction caused by WD-40.. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2012 1:53 pm
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Just wanted to share troubling event with aerosol RemOil.
I probably hadn't touched this can in a year or so, when I went to use it, the oil had apparently partially evaporated and gummed up, blocking the spray valve and rendering the can useless. if it gums up in the can, what'll it do in the guitar?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill Howard
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2012 5:48 am Atf
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I'm a certified transmission builder and I don't think you can get a better lube for a steel than ATF, it has detergent factor yet will not dry up gum up or corrode,ever... get it on you?,put some on your finger run it under water it will not come off.
ATF is made to hang onto parts under grueling conditions&even high temp.. I know turbine oil is probably great but atf is 4.00 a quart. And maybe other than Paul Franklin or Tommy White the canger is not going to be going fast as Micky Adams Jet:)....If there is any sludge or dirt ATF will clean it and lubricate it well |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Jan 2012 7:38 am
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Bill, in my testing of different oils, I came to the conclusion that ATF shouldn't be used in lubing steel guitars. I believe there is an incompatibility between ATF and aluminum and steel parts rubbing together. It left a black dirty mess in between the aluminum changer fingers and steel scissors for example.
My experience only..your mileage may vary
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 16 Jan 2012 8:32 am
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Bent, do you think it was accelerating the oxidation process???
_________________
ARTIST RELATIONS: MSA GUITARS
2017 MSA LEGEND XL D10, S10, Studio Pro S12 EXE9
Mullen G2, Rittenberry S10, Infinity D10, Zumsteel 8+9
Anderson, Buscarino, Fender, Roman Guitars, Sarno Octal, Revelation Preamps, BJS BARS, Lots of Blackface Fenders! |
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Frank Montmarquet
From:
The North Coast, New York, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2012 10:02 am
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| I think what is happening is that the ATF is flushing out the crud inside the changer, it is thin and will flow into small spaces, like down the changer axle. I have been using ATF on my Saxophones for years, the same thing happened when I started, black stuff came out of the long tubes etc., but soon went away. Just blot it up. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 16 Jan 2012 10:09 am
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Bent,
I think that "black dirty mess" was stuff that the ATF was flushing out. MARVEL MYSTERY OIL is another ATF kind of lube I've used at times. Just my two cents...BF
oops..looks like Frank and I were posting at the same time...BF
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 17 Jan 2012 9:08 am
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Mickey, Yes, I believe it could have something to do with the oxidation and actually eating away at the aluminum and/or the galvanized steel at an alarming rate. I know one thing Bill and Frank...it was not crud or dirt being flushed out. This was applied to a new changer and sat in there for 3 months. Changer was taken apart and cleaned. I mean it was BLACK. No way could that much dust have accumulated in that short a time, even in the shop conditions where the steel stands.
Also, after installing a new changer, I lubed it with "your" Mobil Jet Turbine oil and I see no evidence of metal/lube incompatibility. The oil has been in the changer for over a year now and changer is still clean and free-moving. I believe this oil works much the same as Triflow "wet" lube.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Ben Feher
From:
Austin TX
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Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:20 pm
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Just to play the devils advocate. The "dry" lube can work well for low tolerence parts that are evenly coated and allowed to dry. If you can "wiggle it" its a good candidate for dry lube with parrifin, but they key is that it needs to be dissassebled, lightly coated and dried. Things like the main pully in a Fender or metal on metal cross shaft pivots and stuff. That layer of parrifin that is so disasterous to high tolerence parts (nut rollers) improves tolernce and lowers friction on low tolerence parts when evenly distrubted. It should only be applied to dissassembled parts to avoid build up in spots that could "gum up" because it doesn't really "penetrate". Dissasseble, thin even coat, let dry, ressemble. Its a wonderful lube if used correctly.
Squirting any lube with parrifin on something that has close tolerences or is assembled is a disaster waiting to happen, bad idea all around. But it does have its uses. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 17 Jan 2012 12:41 pm
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Bent,
After what you said,Think I will just stick with Tri-flow.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2012 12:57 pm
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Bent, Did you not say in the past that when you dismantled the ATF steel, that their was unexplainable, pre mature wear? And didn't someone also say that ATF had something in it to make friction so trannys would work properly? RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Jan 2012 3:24 pm
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Ron, Yes I said that about unexplainable wear.Can't remember the part where someone said something about making friction. You'd have to find the thread.
_________________
BenRom Pedal Steel Guitars
https://www.facebook.com/groups/212050572323614/ |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 18 Jan 2012 6:21 pm
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Ron,
The type-F auto trans fluid did have an additive that was different from Dexron (sp) I heard/read that it had bronze in it and was designed to help eliminate slipping, I wont elaborate, cause I don't know for sure. Bill
This product contains Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphata as per the MSDS data sheet.Whatever that is.
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Mark Fasbender
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Posted 2 Feb 2012 2:53 am
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| George Seymour wrote: |
Years ago Jeff Newman recommended "Liquid Wrench",
still around...after speaking about the destruction caused by WD-40.. |
newman recommended boe-shield. use it and you will never use aything else. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 2 Feb 2012 5:28 am
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FWIW...I just remembered, there is a "one way clutch" in some, if not all auto transmissions. also where I worked there was a machine that I did maint. on that had one of these clutches, it recommended "typeF" ATF.
Conclusion...stay away from any type of ATF for lubing anything unless the mfg. recommends it.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Godfrey Arthur
From:
3rd Rock
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 4:07 pm
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| Ben Feher wrote: |
Just to play the devils advocate.
Squirting any lube with parrifin on something that has close tolerences or is assembled is a disaster waiting to happen, bad idea all around. But it does have its uses. |
Hammond organ oil, the stuff used to lubricate tonewheel generator moving parts needs to be paraffin free.
Word has it that it's basically turbine oil but don't quote me on that as there is no real across the board claim by the experts, yet the oil is available from Hammond parts sources online.
Must be an industry secret.
It needs to be paraffin free oil as the oiling system in a Hammond B3 (C3 A100 any model with a tonewheel) uses long spaghetti lengths of cotton wicks that deliver the oil to the bearings of 90+ moving tone wheels, and vibrato scanner motor. And since paraffin can block the wicks from allowing the oil to reach its destination, it's a no-no. So only Hammond oil (whatever the real source) is the only oil used if you want to stay safe. Plus there are attributes in the oil to keep other problems from cropping.
These organs are now generally 40 to 75 years old, not made anymore since the 1970's and as far back as the 1930's. The organ techs would be complaining in 2014 about sludge buildup overhauling same from over the years, and do come across organs where the owner used the wrong oil. And to add to the vanguard, have blown the whistle on a few choice popular lubricants used in electronics that have turned after use on critical switches, jacks, tube sockets, etc., which a Hammond rig still uses.
As with some lubricant company claims, over the years, what we've come to trust in a lubricant has had some disappointing results as we note the lubricant's tendency to gum up or attract other problems. After all, these companies make general use products and can't be expected to know everything.
Perhaps a psg is not that critical. But when dealing with major dis-assembly time and effort, one may need all the help they can get, should one decide to lubricate.
Every time you hear some haunting Hammond organ passage on a hit song or in your band, this is what is moving inside that one organ to create those lovely tones:
The threads you see (below) going in and out of the square bathtub oil reservoir and oil pad are going somewhere to deliver oil. And this is not even the spaghetti trough of wicks going to each and every tonewheel bearing in the photo above, which have their own oil funnels not seen in the photos. The large round box with wires and screws below, is the vibrato scanner that creates vibrato with an engine distributor rotor type affair and needs oil as well. It can also suffer from over oiling the scanner.
I agree with Ben's comment and stating the Hammond issue, corroborates.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7 |
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Lee Dassow
From:
Jefferson, Georgia USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 4:56 pm
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I've never had a problem with Rem oil, with Teflon.
I've also used Break Free CLP to lubricate my steels, of course, very sparingly. Tennessee Lee
_________________
2015 Mullen D-10 Royal Precision 9x8,-1990 BMI S-10 5x5-1972 Silver face Fender pro Reverb amp,-1965 Fender Super Reverb Amp,- 1966 Fender Showman Amp Two 15" JBL speakers,- 2006 65 Fender Twin Reverb reissue Amp,- 1982 Peavey Session 500 amp,-1978 Peavey Session 400,Goodrich Volume Pedals,John Pearse Steel Bars, |
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Don Ricketson
From:
Llano, Texas
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 7:54 pm
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Dang Godfrey, and I thought the underside of a D-10 looked complicated  .
_________________
GFI D10-8/6 Black/Red
Zum Encore 4/5 Red
Justice ProLite 3/4 Black
2-Nashville 112
"Making The Stars Shine" |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Aug 2014 11:14 am
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LPS1.....lot like tri-flow.
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Aug 2014 11:49 am
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10w-30
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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