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Topic: Chords |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 10:27 am |
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Rick...Could happen. Send me an email and I will send you some info.
That is between Jim P and whoever...personally, I don't care/mind. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 11:04 am 14 strings or?
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| 10 thru 14 will work fine. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 11:18 am
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| Quote: |
| Seriously, it only makes sense that if there is a better way to use the pedal steel guitar's capabilities for chord melody playing, like a guitar or piano would, why not explore the possibilities? |
Many, many player have yet to fully explore the complete depths of the "simple E9th". A lot of folks are just scratching the tip of the iceberg as far as the capabilities of the E9th and C6th tunings.
While I can appreciate the extreme details and effort that is evident not only in Eds charts, but also his 14 string keyless design, I would be very surprised to find someone actually stop in mid stream of a long career of playing E9th or C6th, to learn this new copedent.
Perhaps a new student would be the best potential guinea pig for this endeaver, but even then, where would that individual find instructional material? |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 12:01 pm
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I guess I should've said a potentially better way...
Ed's tuning idea might be the Esperanto of the steel guitar world, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto but I really would encourage that somebody with enough time and the right qualifications give it some serious consideration. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 11 Oct 2011 7:54 am
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Thanks Rick...let's see what you think after a trial behind the wheel. Below is a boiled down chord list.
Here is a sample of the "choice" available chords for the CM13EX1 tuning/setup. only a portion of those available are shown... for the 0(NC), 1, and 2 changes activated. What can be seen is the number of chord locations for any given chord type.
The above list will be used to determine which chord(s) to be used with the following "tunes" format.
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 12 Oct 2011 8:06 am tune with chosen chords
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The above chart has E as a V chord = error, S/B VI...corrected in next chart.
The chart below shows the "tune" with chosen chords from the chord location chart. The fret, string, and choices that give the chord are shown in the colms at the right. Three choices of chord are given (3,4,5 tones).
The F,S,C can be applied to sheet music or fake book to show where to find the chord on the tuning. They can also be used to help create TAB for the tune.
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 3:40 am
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While this thread is primarily about Edās 13th tuning,(and I have objected to it as being too parallel in design), I have to commend Ed for his progressive experiments with the PSG, both the physical aspects & his tuning inventions.
But I do object to the opinion offered by some that āwe donāt need a new copedantā,
C6 and E9th have it all covered.
Christopher says:
| Quote: |
| I think Reece Anderson's playing proves that it's the player, not the instrument, at least as far as scant versus massive chording. Also, you should listen to Doug L play Bach. |
In my experience all the chordal playing of great players like Reece, Curly, BE and a host of others, is indeed great playing, but the vast majority of voicings that they play are really the same. When you remove the stylistic differences between these players,
what you see(hear)are mostly similar chord forms and voicings, mainly because there are these inherent limitations of the instrument and its tunings. When you do hear something quite different it is usually because of some unique pedal that the player has come up with such as found on Curlyās tuning or on Reecesā Bb6.
So if this often reiterated statement is true :
| Quote: |
| The limitations are more often in the player than in the instrument. |
then we are saying that it is the individual limitations of great players like Reece, Curly, BE, Rugg etc that result in the overwhelming amount of exactly the same chord voicings being played on the 6th tunings and not the tuning or copedant of the instrument.
I canāt believe this to be true, not of these great musicians. Rather I believe there is only so much that physically can be done within the standard PSG copedant, and to go beyond demands new tunings & copedants.
I see that someone else has stated that I should hear Doug L.s Bach, and as I said before I have never heard his playing. Is there a recording or u-tube that I can hear his playing? I am very interested.
I would very much like to hear his Bach, however if it comes down to a situation where it takes months of painstaking practice & study, for an accomplished PSGāer to play what is really quite easy on another instrument, then I think that supports my position that there are inherent limitations in current copedants.
Again I commend Ed for his copedant work and only wish that he would post regular standard notation sample as opposed to excel spread sheets. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 6:29 am lost in the wash
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Ron,
Though it may have gotten lost in the wash, the intent was to answer the threads opening question from my standpoint. My weapon of choice is the Spreadsheet. Why? It allows writing a program into which one enters their Coped/tuning setup and gives all that you have seen here on the forum and more. The program calculates (not a lookup of) self consistant chord names. I am not aware of any script pgm that does that, or calculates string tensions, or neck length/spacing values, or necks in intervals- notes-midi numbers-frequencies, or changer in intervals and notes, etc.
The pgm has been applied to E9,C6, E9/B6 (Newman/Stafford/Sierra), my 4X5 E9/A6/B6/13 series, and now the CM13 tuning. Most computerized PSG folk have a spreadsheet pgm, so it is easy to email them either the whole program, or just the results.
From the root string, The fret, and the changes required to get the desired chord, one can usually make an arrangement, and notate the FSC info onto their fake book or sheet music. If the ear can't fill in the melody....
How many of you PSG pickers are sight readers? |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 6:51 am
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Mike
Thank you for the links.I enjoyed them
very much.
Terrific stuff- especially the Bach Bouree- seems exact if I remember it that well. Really nice playing
Of course in the wide realm of music that
Bouree is really very simple music (not to say by any means that I could do a better job, or even close!)
But the jazz clip - although also really nice playing, illustrates again the 'chord melody' issue that I have been talking about regarding PSG. While guitarists and piano players go thru all kinds of variations in voicing on the changes, the PSG player plays those same voicings that every othe psg player does.
Why? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 7:00 am
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Ron, I'm having a hard time imagining... What chord voicings are not available on the standard C6th? It seems to me that every time some asks "Where can I find a xxx chord?", they get lots of answers.
I've always chalked up the "sameness" of various players' chord voicings to the fact that they were playing the same kind of music, and those are simply the right chords to the tunes. Mid-century jazz did have this homogenous flavor to it.
I noticed that when Dave Easley took the stage in the jazz room at ISGC and opened with a Zappa tune, about a third of the room walked out. Maybe the "similar forms and voicings" are simply what the audience demands.
_________________
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 8:07 am
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I always felt that someday all the chords and connecting chords that I play on guitar and piano would all eventually reveal themselves on C6. Well, I got tired of waiting after 30 years of only coming up with the usual stuff, (mostly 6 chords w/ limited minors and alot of alt 7s that were already sounding a little dated to my ears)...so I started to experiment.
IMO Curly's cool chords had a lot to do with the fact that he started his C6 tuning with a low A and D in the bass. (Listen to Danny Sneed, he's got that too!)Right off the bat he was able to get much fatter major and minor 7s,9s.& 11's that could transition between each other more naturally than the stock 5+1 with a C in the bass could. I didn't want to get rid of my low C, so I put a pedal that lowered both the low F&C down a minor third right between the usual pedal 7 and the Boo Wah.
Voila!
Then, I always felt that C6 was sorely lacking in Major triads, Major 2's, Sus4's that can easily resolve in the way that it's done on E9, Quartal stacks, "slash chords" etc. So having a KL that raises both E's to F, and a pedal that puts a D in the middle (couldn't do the dedicated D on my steel) made the C6 more of a piano like instrument to me.
So I think trying to find a tuning setup that allows each player to play exactly what he or she wants is still one of the quests that sets us apart from other instruments. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 8:37 am
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Rick, it seems that what you really want or need is a universal based on the open 6 tuning. Maybe C6/F9. You're almost there now. You just need 2 more pedals.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 13 Oct 2011 8:52 am
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| Rick, it seems that what you really want or need is a universal based on the open 6 tuning. Maybe C6/F9. You're almost there now. You just need 2 more pedals. |
 LOL Mike!
Well you're right about that, but for the time being I'll just continue to slowly wear down my lower vertebra's and carry my D-Uni (D12 extended)beast around.
My problem is, I truly LOVE both basic tunings and love all the extensions and trick pulls I've got in place after obsessing about them for most of my life. Having (almost) everything I want now with 2 necks makes it seem almost impossible to ever be able to get it all on one neck.
Once again though...I could probably do 95% of my gigs on a S10 3+3  |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 14 Oct 2011 6:08 am
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Ed
I hope I have not offended you by saying I wish you would post in standard notation.
That was selfish, since that's what I read most easily.
I like your explanation re the spredsheets,
and see it as a wonderful tool now
(lightbulb!!)
Would I be imposing too much to ask you to run my extended 14str cope?
RE: Sight reading on PSG is very hard - there are so many C's - where to play it.
Sight reading is different than the ability to read standard notation, either
pop lead sheet/fake type notation or fully composed parts(all written). I would be suprised to see even the most accomplished PSG'ers sight read thru a complex piece of written music, but I suspect most read standard notation very well.
B0B
| Quote: |
simply the right chords to the tunes
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- every body plays the same chords or variations on the chords to the tune- that & the melody comprise the basic structure of the tune.
In my comments about chords (and Ed's 13th tuning) I have always talked about the limited chord voicings available - not the changes themselves. see Ricks
comment
| Quote: |
| Then, I always felt that C6 was sorely lacking in Major triads, Major 2's, Sus4's that can easily resolve in the way that it's done on E9, Quartal stacks, "slash chords" etc. |
Rick
I agree with your feelings about C6 copedant.
E-F is very important but I like the middle D as a string even though it interrupts the grips, you can get used to it like F# on E9. Susan Alcorn uses it, and BE had it on a 12 string, at least as posted on Ernie Renns site. I think a lot of players are using the C69, but a pedal
to get the D is good too. However, it's faster to get at with a dedicated string.
Of course if anyone is WORKING playing PSG, radical copedant changes are very problematic.
I would like to MAKE "the C6 more of a piano like instrument"
We know we can play two part voices
as well, or better than almost any instrument.
How do we translate that spectacular PSG ability to weave unbeleivable 2-part voices into 3 or 4part voices- moving together so beautifully, so that any line stands on its on, and not just 3rds & 6ths & 7ths moving in parralell? This is what a piano or harp or guitar can do, and to a lesser extent vibes.
To have a PSG that can reasonably play 3 or 4part voicings in the above manner would expand the instrument into enormous heights so, what is admittedly a peripheral instrument in the music world, would become (to steal a phrase)
" the king of instruments"
anyway i hope I have not hijacked this thread from Ed's intent |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 14 Oct 2011 7:30 am
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Ron,
Re "standard notation"...Not a problem = no offense. I use it also to do arrangements along with my "choice chord" location charts.
Re "run my extended"...I am afraid to open that door here. More elsewhere.
RE sight "reading on the PSG"...agree. The CM13 tuning structure provides the diatonic scale as strings on the PSG. The line notes spell IM13, the space notes spell IIm13. All will become string notes, hence sheet music can be read directly onto the strings if desired. Caveats are 6th = bb7, 4 = #3rds or bb5 and the likes to make the intervals all odd within a chord.
RE "highjacking"... my questions were answered...let her drift. You are probably the least guilty of "sidetracking". |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 8:29 am CM13 in notation
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For those that speak/read notation, here is a bit of the 13 series in that form.
First, the basis of the 13 series as 7 tone chords in the key of C (I actually tune to Bb for the sake of string 1).
CHART 1.
The first 7 tone chord is CM13. The mid C is found on string 8. Each adjacent note in the chord is an adjacent string. So strings 8 thru 2 are part of the chord. String 1 is an exception = lower E. CM13 (the basic tuning) is invoked by no changes activated (NC). These are the line notes of the staff.
The second 7 tone chord is C13. This is invoked by activating R> to get the 7th (Bb).
The third 7 tone chord is Cm13. This is invoked by activating R> and P1 to get the b3 and b7.
The fourth 7 tone chord is Dm13. This is invoked by activating R> and P1 and playing two frets higher. These are the space notes of the staff, and are also strings 8 thru 2.
CM13 with Dm13 allow harmonizing the CM scale in chordsā¦3,4,5, etc. tones. This will be further illuminated when these chord structures are expanded to strings 14 thru 2.
CHART 2.
Above we have CM13, C13, Cm13, and Dm13 expanded to strings 14 thru 2. The line notes are each a string, and the space notes are also a string. Each adjacent string is an adjacent ODD interval of the chord. The lower 3rd is left out (above the string 14 root) to have the Root and 5th in the bass. Again we can harmonize the C Major scale in close chords with out skipping stringsā¦to be shown next.
Next we show the 4 tone chords available for NC on the CM13 tuning/setup. Any of the chordās notes can be raised or lowered by a single halftone to alter the chords.
CHART 3.
And now the 4 tone chords available for R>P1 played two frets higher = Dm13. Any of the chordās notes except those used by R> and P1 to make the m13 chord can be raised or lowered by a single halftone to alter the chords.
CHART 4.
Below is the 4 tone harmonizing of the C Major scale using NC, and R>P1 raised two frets.
CHART 5.
The same scalar harmonies are available using any string as a scale root if the correct changes are activated.
The harmonization shown is for across the PSG neck. The 4 tone chord types needed, to harmonize the scale are M7, m7, 7, and m7b5. These may be obtained using any string as root with the correct changes activated, therefore the harmonization may be obtained going up the neck also.
Adjacent halftone intervals may be obtained by dropping a 7th and raising a 5thā¦raising a 3rd and dropping a 5th, raising a root and dropping a b3. These will be other intervals in another scale key.
Does this notation presentation help in understanding the 13 series tuning structure? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 9:39 am
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This is very helpful.
The first thing I noticed is that the notes of these chords are either all on lines or all on spaces. In sheet music, even beginner piano music, one often sees chords that have some notes on lines, others on spaces. 
_________________
-ššš- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 11:00 am Lines and Spaces
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The above was 13 series 101, meant to show the scalar harmonization of the C Major scale in 4 tone chords, no space notes needed for that. However, because the changes as assigned allow raising or lowering notes by a halftone, chords with line and space notes combined are available.
C,E,G,B = strings 8,7,6,5 for NC = R,3,5,7. They are all line notes as shown.
Raise the B by one halftone and we have a notation choice = #7 or bb9 both of which would be line notesā¦but it may also be an 8 = oct = C, which is a space note. We now have line notes and space notes mixed in the C,E,G,C chord.
E,G,B,D = strings 7,6,5,4 for NC = R,b3,5,b7. they are all line notes as shown.
Raise the E to F, and or the B to C and we have another notation issue. #R = b2 = line notesā¦but F is a space note. B is a line noteā¦C may be notated as a space note.
2,4,6,8,10,12,14 (even intervals) can present the notation issue, usually resolved by using the space note location.
See if you can find others. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 11:38 am
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I have 2 comments:
First, Ed, it is easier for those of us who read to see what you're talking about when you use notation, but when you do. please use both bass and treble clefs. It's very difficult to read all those leger lines.
The second comment, is, and I don't mean to be flippant, but can this tuning be used to play A Way to Survive? I only use the song as an example of a typical country song.
What I don't see in your tuning are inversions of major chords. (I.E. EGC or GCE instead of CEG.)
As b0b said
| Quote: |
| In sheet music, even beginner piano music, one often sees chords that have some notes on lines, others on spaces. |
The reason is that inverted major and minor chords do not stack up in consecutive 3rds. One of the characteristic of the E9 tuning is that there is a 4th between strings 4 and 5, which becomes a 3rd when you depress the A pedal.
Where is that possibility on your tuning? it seems to me (and I may be missing something here,) that putting all the 3rds on adjacent strings, you've lost the instrument's ability to play inversions, and along with that, the ability to effectively play music based on 3 note chords, including country, blues, rock and much (but not all) classical music. (Emphasis on the word effectively.)
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 11:46 am
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An example from my previous post: Last January in Phoenix, I played a classical piece called "Reverie." The opening notes are G and D, a descending 4th that I played on the 4th and 5th strings, on the 15th fret, without stepping on a pedal or moving the bar.
I don't see how I could do that on this tuning.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 12:11 pm
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MP..think Great or Grand staff...I use what software I have.
Some of your questions were answered in the preceding post = E,G,C etc.
"Way to survive"...you have it on the tuning it was written for...I have never looked on the 13 series, and probably won't.
Keep looking Mike, who knows what you might find!
Add or change the changes (P&Ls) to get whatever floats your boat. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2011 12:55 pm
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| Mike Perlowin wrote: |
| One of the characteristic of the E9 tuning is that there is a 4th between strings 4 and 5, which becomes a 3rd when you depress the A pedal. |
Yes, but there is also a note between them - the D# on the 2nd string. The E9th has a solid 5 strings per octave. C6th has 5 strings in the top octave, 4 in the middle octave, and a bass string. Ed's 13th series tuning has just 4 strings per octave, which is why it requires more bar movement to play harmonized melodies.
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