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Topic: Chords |
ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 3:27 pm
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Bob...do you mean both, or each?
Define what you mean by E9 and C6.
What do you mean by "all"...a few, many, none missing?
Mike...come to think of it, you don't need to rerod to get the sound. Using one of you E tuned PSGs, just retune from string 11 up as E,G#,B,D#,F#,A,C#,E,F#,G#. This gives EM13. To Get The E13 retune string 8 to D. To sample the Em13 keep the D and b the G#. Should give you a taste. |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 3:58 pm Re: definitions
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ed packard wrote: |
Mike...come to think of it, you don't need to rerod to get the sound. Using one of you E tuned PSGs, just retune from string 11 up as E,G#,B,D#,F#,A,C#,E,F#,G#. This gives EM13. To Get The E13 retune string 8 to D. To sample the Em13 keep the D and b the G#. Should give you a taste. |
Ed, I might try that at some point in the future. Right now I am preparing for my gig next month where I will be the featured performer, playing instrumentals for 3 hours with just a guitar player backing me up. No bass, drums, or singers.
I posted about it in "Event announcements." _________________ Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 4:03 pm Re: definitions
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ed packard wrote: |
Bob...do you mean both, or each?
Define what you mean by E9 and C6.
What do you mean by "all"...a few, many, none missing |
I suppose I mean "each", as an E9th player with 3+5 or a C6th player with 5+4 has all of those capabilities at his disposal. Each tuning includes all of the features you mentioned: - adjacent interval capability
- full tone changes
- widely spaced intervals
- scale running capability without moving the bar
In addition, each of them has near-infinite chording capability, limited primarily by the range of the 10 strings at any given bar position (1 5/6 octaves on E9th, 2 2/3 octaves on C6th). That range can be extended by adding additional strings, of course, or by using open strings for the lowest note(s) of a chord.
Have I made my opinion clear enough yet, sir? _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Ron Castle
From: West Hurley,NY
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 3:01 am
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Bob
Ed's statement which you reiterate
adjacent interval capability
full tone changes
widely spaced intervals
scale running capability without moving the bar
That is not complete scope of
what a musical instrument should be.
Basicly, you would think that someone could play anything a 1 handed piano player could play, but that is not really possible on either E9 or C6
Even the greatest players most often resort to parallel 3rd, 6ths, 7ths when harmonizing a melody line with almost no
contrary motion. This results from using the bar, which is the very thing that makes the sound of a steel so beautiful.
My contention is that Eds 13th setup increases this aspect of PSG.
The attitude that this 60-70 year old instrument is a finished work does not do justice to what the PSG could become, at the point in time when it finally breaks
loose of its early musical roots.
If the instrument can be made more versatile encomposing a bigger range of
musical abilities,without loosing it's
most beautiful qualities, that would lead to greater acceptance and use in the musical worlds.
Amateur players like myself and Ed are probably the only ones who can afford to make off the wall experiments to increase the capabilities of the instruments, since they have no need to maintain the status quo in public performances. |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 6:17 am clarity
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B0b..a good start to justifying your position/opinion. When you say "all" do you mean nothing is missing = all possibilities are included (which would be a bit much)?
Is everything in the Emmon's E9 10 string coped/setup? The Emmon's 10 string C6 setup/coped...or are you allowing for additions like the PF 4th pedal and others.
Do you think that a thread re E9 vs other tuning/setups might be of interest? Same for C6...sir.
Ron...well said. Re the adjacent halftone structures; would you supply the name of some players/recordings so that we might listen to the style that you indicate. Is this used in soloing, or comping, or both?
You have modified a tuning to get what you want..bravo. So have many others, some of whose variation are in this thread and on the Forum in the tuning's section.
I agree with you re if your nickles are made playing Eor C6, be slow to modify your setup.
Re inversions and identifying them:
Here is my approach to computerizing the identification that will be integrated into my setup solve chords pgm.
Using music script, or tab, it is not an issue as far as I can see. Using a fake book or lead sheet I don't find inversions identified, hence the exact sound desired by the arranger can get lost...it would seem to require "arranged jazz" (a Johnny Smith preference).
Here is a short form of my inversion conversion chart.
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 7:54 am
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Let's not argue about semantics. I said "all of those capabilities" and "all of the features you mentioned". I was referring specifically to those four things that you (Ed) said were mechanically challenging for a single tuning.
I did not say that there was no room for advancement or no place for experimentation. I obviously don't believe that, as I am currently playing a completely new 8-string copedent that I developed just 2 years ago.
My opinion is that any advances in pedal steel copedents need to at least meet the fundamental expectations that Ed nicely itemized as 4 musical characteristics, plus provide a healthy assortment of basic and extended chords. My diatonic experiments of the 90's failed in that respect.
Ron, you want to add contrary motion to the list, and I'm fine with that too. One of the masters of contrary motion is Lloyd Green, who plays a relatively simple E9th copedent. It appears to me that contrary motion is often more a problem of technique and imagination than a limitation of copedents. _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 9:33 am
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Ron Castle wrote: |
The attitude that this 60-70 year old instrument is a finished work does not do justice to what the PSG could become, at the point in time when it finally breaks loose of its early musical roots. |
It already has Ron. And the players who are doing the breaking are using basically conventional tunings, Susan Alcorn uses a slightly modified C6. Doug Livingston uses an extended E9 to play both classical music and jazz. I use a straight E9/B6 with no unusual changes, only I know very little about the B6 side of the tuning and rarely use it, to play music by Debussy and Stravinsky, as well as blues and rock. (I'm not going to re-post that You-tube clip of me in the blues-rock band. I'm sure everybody is tired of it.)
If I can play that stuff on E9, clearly the tuning is capable of handling just about anything.
You might be on to something worthwhile, (and the only way we will know is if/when somebody shows us what can be done with the tuning,) but don't think for a second that the conventional tunings are limited to the music that has been played on them in the past. _________________ Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Ron Castle
From: West Hurley,NY
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 2:11 pm this thread was about chords
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Mike
It is true that some different styles of music can be played in limited fashion on the current PSG setups.
When it comes to Jazz, all the players I have heard use very scant chording, and pretty much spend their improv choruses in single note runs & phrases.
Don't get me wrong now, I am not knocking any of the players or their spectacular abilities.
I am only pointing out that the homophonic capabilities of PSG are quite minimal.
From time to time we hear players doing
pieces from the 'classical' repetoire, but most of what I have heard is not more complex than what a precocious teenage piano student can play, and much of it is less so.
If we are playing an instrument of 10 or 12 or 14strings, then we can assume it is a chording instrument, and SHOULD be as capable as say spanish guitar, without overdubbing in the studio.
I am not familiar with Doug Ls' playing at all so I cannot comment. Susan Alcorn has done quite a few interesting things,but not all that much in the realm of chording.
I would wager that those you have mentioned and the other great players
out there would struggle to play Bach inventions, and even simple Bach chorales, where as most serious piano or classical guitar students would be able to sit down an read thru such pieces with ease.
Why should these accomplished players have to struggle?
This is not a negative comment about the players, it is about the instrument itself, which I believe limits the abilities of the performer.
B0b
It is true that Lloyd Green does use some
contrary motion, but the music is extremely simple- quite beautiful and soulful- but simple from the point of view of either modern jazz harmonies or rigorous classical harmonies
Ed
Quote: |
Re the adjacent halftone structures; would you supply the name of some players/recordings so that we might listen to the style that you indicate. Is this used in soloing, or comping, or both?
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Both solo & comp- listen to any of Bill Evans' trio work, Herbie Hancock with Miles quintet (prior to the fusion years)
My examples were very simple, and of course these players use much more in the way of dissonances and close intervals and altered chords.
BTW
altho B0B and Mike seem to be saying that E9 & C6 has it all covered I did notice that Doug Jernigan came up with a fairly
radical copedant for playing Jazz. I guess
he felt that neither E9 or C6 was up to the job.
Anyway, from a discussion of Ed's new setup and its abilities to get many complex and altered chords, it seems that
the conversation has really turned to
"we don't need a new copedant! forget it"
I personally object to that idea. As sentient humans we should always try to do better- even if in the trying we fail. |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 2:32 pm
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I'm just trying to understand the problem that these new ideas are attempting to solve. I totally agree with Ron's statement:
Quote: |
If we are playing an instrument of 10 or 12 or 14strings, then we can assume it is a chording instrument, and SHOULD be as capable as say spanish guitar, without overdubbing in the studio. |
I just don't see how the current "standard" copedents are failing in this regard. Can you point to a specific piece of music that is impossible on a typical U-12 or D-10, because of limitations built into the copedent?
I have a large collection of instrumental music, and I rarely hear anything on any instrument that an accomplished pedal steel player could not play. Most of our limitations are in our minds, not in our instruments. _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 28 Sep 2011 5:19 pm Morphing of chords in a progression
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Ron...you are indeed a word smith.
Bob...The drift/difference in the meaning of words from time to time and place to place does make questioning their meaning as used valid, as does their order of use in a phrase or context = semantics and syntax.
The "list of four" was truncated list to illustrate. There are many more to be added...folks, please add any you can think of.
If the notes are in the coped/setup, then any arrangement of notes can be played in serial fashion, hence any tune should be playable on any coped. It will, however be more playable on some setups than on others. Certain styles will sound better one one setup/tuning than on another.
A simple example is Steel Guitar Rag played on the I neck vs the IV neck vs the V neck of the basic E9. It is sonic flow which is influenced/controlled by the availability of the desired tones hence tuning/setup. |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 1 Oct 2011 8:56 am
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The past, present, and future of the 13 series.
As far as I know, there have been no other attempts to define the 13th series tuning/setup on the PSG…it is however not too far from that used on the concert harp with less strings and more changes.
A few decades ago I was reading/studying a book by Arnold Schoenberg named THEORY OF HARMONY. Chapter IV had the title = THE MAJOR MODE AND DIATONIC CHORDS. The information caused me to think of expanding the principle to include up to 13th chords and apply it to the PSG.
The result was to pick a note as the “system root”, and tune to the diatonic scale for that note as in C,E,G,B,D,F,A = 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 etc.. As intervals, this can be applied to any note as system root, hence can be added to an existing setup/coped with little effort as in the E9/A6/B6 universal, or an A6, Bb6 or C6 instrument.
The result was that the common changes like E to F, E to Eb, B to Bb, middle E to D and so forth gave the M13, 13, m13, mM13 and so forth. Also, any note in the tuning could provide a system root for the 13 series. This makes available a cascade of chord structures. I had a batch of 10 of these made. They had 4 pedals, 5 levers, and 14 strings. The tuning/setup is shown below. The first chart is in E, and the second is in C for easy discussion. I actually use Eb/Ab/Bb, E13series.
This was interesting enough that I decided to tune and rod one of my 4X5s to Bb13 series only(the discussion will use C as the primary system root),,,the changes (P&L) are initially set to raise and lower each note by a single halftone. This provides the s4, b5, #5, etc. for the “system root”, These variations provide the raising and lowering of other intervals when other strings are used as the root…AND each other string provides the possibility of another 13 series system root.
The full 13 system requires 14 changes plus NC = no changes. This can mean 9 pedals and 5 levers…as loaded as an E9/B6 Uni. The task became to assign the possible interval changes such that the cream of the crop were concentrated in the first 3 or 4 pedals and the 5 levers commonly used on the various E9 and similar tunings/setups.
The guiding light was to set up so as to provide the M13,13,m13, and mM13, via changes, that could be used with each string as the root. The next chart shows the result.
This leaves a lot of changes to use with other than the single halftone changes to get any interval structures not covered by the halftone raises and lowers.
For those that might like to prowl around in the details of this and other tuning/setup related charts (sans text) go to:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/PSG%20TUNING%20STRUCTURES/ |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 10:07 am wrap up?
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Thanks to those that have participated in the thread…mostly from the Steel Guitar Forum, and some private communications.
Now to address some issues raised in the thread:
Any melody or harmony line can be “played” on a single string. There are many one stringed instrument’s in the world on which are played Arabic, Oriental, and music based upon other scales. The Steel guitar has many strings, any of which will supply 2 to 3 octaves at different pitches. This is independent of the tuning. Different tunings/setups allow harmonies to be included. The different tunings allow for different ways (via) to connect notes and chords hence each will ad its own flavor to the tune.
Lots of chords in lots of locations will allow many directions of movement between note groups and chords. Each string (except 14) allows up to a full tone movement of whatever interval it is for the chosen root string = chord alteration, or a “leading” function. This also provides many scale pockets = per M13, 13, etc. using each string as a scale root.
Can strings be changed by a full tone? -1 to +1 halftone is a full tone, so yes. Concentrating the 13 series changes to the most commonly used P&Ls allows the remaining P&Ls to be used for whatever changes one would like.
How many places can we find adjacent halftone separation between strings? 66 just using the two and three change activations. I have not yet sorted the 4 change activations etc. Which intervals these turn out to be will depend upon which string is used as the root. Here is one of those necks showing adj h’tone intervals on adj strings.
There are as many neck views as there are P&L combinations = 100s.
“Spanner grips” to get the same or complementary notes at the same time in different octaves are available in quantity on/in the 13series structure. Here is a simple example using the single halftone change that I assigned to P8. There are a number of possible choices along the neck. There are many other changes that will provide other choices. Here is one neck view (P that will provide a few.
In the 13 system, 3,4,5 etc. tone harmonizing of the Major scale can be done within two frets going from south (toward) and north (away from) the players body. 3,4,5 etc tone harmony of the Major scale can be done using adjacent strings going west (players left) to east (players right).
Ok, what have I learned from the responses in this thread?...That in the digital no moving parts changer there should be an APP to allow users to enter and mod their own tuning/setup/coped.
Maybe scales will be the next subject. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 10:42 am
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ed packard given your thorough and pain staking endeavor IMHO I would think a couple of played and tabbed out tunes with a lot of chords and in various genre would have been a much better sell than time consuming charts and tables too boringly vast in scope to be of much use.
In this endeavor I would think the apprentice approach to be of more value. |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 10:46 am
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Stuart...OK...you can do that. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 11:09 am
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Ed that was not to say I didn't find your idea fascinating or all your charts and tables to be boring.
I would be happy to try and tab out a song butas I said I think I would be better off as an apprentice. Show me by playing then I can do it justice.
Last edited by Stuart Legg on 7 Oct 2011 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 11:10 am
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Ed, I have a proposition for you. If you could arrange to have a guitar (12 strings please) with this tuning set up at Jim Palinscar's shop, that I could take home for a couple of weeks, I'll drive down there and
pick it up, take it home, and experiment with the tuning and see what I can come up with.
I admit to having pre-judged the tuning without giving it a fair chance. In all fairness, I think either I and maybe some other players should do that. Perhaps after I return the guitar to Jim, some of the other local players could also borrow it and try it our for a couple of weeks. That way you can get feedback from several different people.
I'd be willing to drive to Jim's shop twice (89 miles one way, 356 miles in total) in order to do this, but I don't want to re-rod either of my present guitars in order to do so.
Who knows? I may like it so much I'll change from my present setup. _________________ Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 11:21 am
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I really don't think you can do this tuning justice with a few days nor a few weeks or even years. It's going to take making a few folks pee their pants when they hear it on a hit recording for it to catch on. |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 11:52 am
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Stuart, it may take years for somebody to learn enough to show all that the tuning can do, but 2 weeks is more than enough time for a player to be able to do something with it.
Here in L.A, we have Jay Dee, Jim Eaton, Doug Livingston, John McClung, Jay Leach, John McDuffie, and at the risk of being immodest, me. And down by Jim, there is Rick Schmidt, Gerry Walker, Kevin Ryan and Jim himself.
Any one of us could figure out something to play on this tuning within 2 weeks, as could every other competent player.
And realistically, nobody is going to abandon their present copedant to start from scratch with a new one that is at this point, purely theoretical. The only way this tuning will ever catch on would be if a few guys tried it on a temporary basis and decided they liked it and installed on a guitar, possibly on the back neck instead of the usual C6. _________________ Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Oct 2011 4:21 pm
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Mike, Ed has shown enough information to validate its feasibility. No need to play it to prove that.
The question is does it fill a particular void in the E9 and C6 and is that void so great that we would need to spend all that time and effort.
The E9 and the C6 coexist and one cannot displace the other. The universal, locking a lever or adding boowah strings to the E9 is a compromise of the two but hasn't proven to be better than the D10. Instead of imitating both why not just have both?
The gospel tuning is a different animal altogether and I don't see a lot of folks throwing their D10 away for that.
If it were all about the chords I'd just put an electric piano on one neck. |
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ed packard
From: Show Low AZ
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Posted 8 Oct 2011 5:31 pm No deal
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Mike...can't happen...unit is scheduled for use on other projects such as integrating the semiconductor individual string pickup, MUX, and Uc along with the non contact P&L position sensors. |
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Rick Schmidt
From: Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2011 8:13 pm
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Hi Ed....How about bringing it to the AZ show in January? I'd love to sit behind it for awhile! |
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Christopher Woitach
From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 8:40 am back to an earlier statement
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Quote: |
When it comes to Jazz, all the players I have heard use very scant chording, and pretty much spend their improv choruses in single note runs & phrases.
Don't get me wrong now, I am not knocking any of the players or their spectacular abilities.
I am only pointing out that the homophonic capabilities of PSG are quite minimal. |
I think Reece Anderson's playing proves that it's the player, not the instrument, at least as far as scant versus massive chording. Also, you should listen to Doug L play Bach. Yes, it's very difficult, and he works hard to put together the arrangements from what I've read, but much more is possible on the PSG using current copedents than is regularly heard.
While you are correct that much of Bill Evans chording is impossible on C6, Bb6, or E9, there is much to be gained by playing chords, even standard PSG voicings, WHERE he plays them. One of his favorite techniques is to place a chord at the beginning of a phrase, particularly on upbeats. This is very possible on PSG, even more so if you use 4 picks.
Like you, I am a professional jazz guitarist, and have been dealing with the limitations of that instrument my whole life. Current copedents seem like one more hurdle, not dealbreakers for modern music.
That being said, I applaud your work, and think you are really on to something cool and innovative. My only objection is in some of your statements about the chordal capabilities of the PSG, particularly the 6th tunings. _________________ Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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b0b
From: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 9:27 am
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I had to look up the word homophonic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophony
It seems to be the basis of the "chord melody" style used by players like Buzz Evans, Al Vescovo, Curley Chalker and Bill Stafford, among others. Most steel guitar jazz solos are single note rides punctuated by chords, but homophonic solos do happen. I've seen John Hughey, Jimmy Day, Hal Rugg, Doug Jernigan and of course Buddy Emmons play uptempo jazz chord solos for a chorus or two, always to the delight and amazement of the audience. And of course the excitement in the air when Buzz Evans or Al Vescovo takes off is incredible.
I have to say that the homophonic capabilites of the pedal steel are considerable. The limitations are more often in the player than in the instrument. _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Rick Schmidt
From: Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 9:50 am
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I've known quite a few homophonic-phobic steel players over the years.
Seriously, it only makes sense that if there is a better way to use the pedal steel guitar's capabilities for chord melody playing, like a guitar or piano would, why not explore the possibilities?
For now, I've found that extending both E9 and C6 tunings comes close enough for my own lifetime.
I'd still like to fool around with Ed's steel though! |
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Mike Perlowin
From: Los Angeles CA
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Posted 9 Oct 2011 10:26 am
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Rick Schmidt wrote: |
I'd still like to fool around with Ed's steel though! |
Rick I'd like to hear what you do with it. If anybody can make it sing, you can.
Ed, I did not make myself clear. (Sorry about that.) I was not suggesting that you leave "the beast" with Jim, but rather that you arranged for him to put your tuning on one of the guitars in his shop.
If he had a guitar with your setup that could be circulated among half a dozen players for maybe 2 weeks each, we could all give you some feedback based on our hands on experience.
This might be a major improvement over what we have now, but how can we tell unless we try it out? _________________ Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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