| Author |
Topic: Chords |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 11:55 am |
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| Mike...no, I am not a performer and also have a bunch on my plate. Maybe later when I am in the recording for instrumentation mode. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 12:11 pm
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Ed, I have expressed some skepticism, but it's possible that your tuning is a major improvement over what we all currently have. The only way we can tell is if somebody (maybe Bill Stafford?) uses it and we can hear what it sounds like.
I'd be willing to experiment with it and see what I came up with, if I had a guitar that was set up with it. But I'm not willing to change the copedant presently on my guitars, and I live too far away from you to borrow yours. Is there any player local to you whom might be willing to lend your guitar, who might be able to demonstrate the tuning for us?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 12:31 pm
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One of the things that Jeff Newman taught was the wide "skip grips" of major and minor triads. This gives you major chords like C-G-E, E-C-G, G-E-C, and minor chords like A-E-C, E-C-A, C-A-E.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious. I don't see how to get these fundamental chords in your copedent, Ed. They are very easy on the E9th, and they sound really good.
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 12:39 pm replys
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Mike...Only chap that has heard the CM13 is Richard Tasso, a forum member. No-one within 180 miles of here. Would not help much anyway as the tuning would need some getting used to.
B0b...not my cup of tea so have not looked for it. Not much interest in reinventing the wheel...if it is there OK, if not don't care as long as something not common and usable is. Lots of stuff here that Newman (and others)could not get. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 12:58 pm Cge...egc
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| Bob....took a quick look...looks like they are there. |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 1:10 pm
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Ed
One thing I'd miss from your tuning is adjacent half-steps for ma7/root, or 2nd/min3rd, or 6th/7th rubs within a voicing, which is a component of more modern voicings (post 1940s!).
Another is the E9 tuning's ability to move melody notes a full step. All non-classical genres seem to employ this sort of movement when the instrument allows, especially voice. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 1:28 pm Re: Cge...egc
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| ed packard wrote: |
| Bob....took a quick look...looks like they are there. |
I'm looking at this:
Where are the wide inversions? Wherever I see a G above a C, there's no E in the octave above it. These chords are easy to find on the standard E9th and C6th, as well as on 6-string guitar. They are used in all kinds of music. They seem to have been lost in this system.
Like I said, maybe I'm just not seeing them. I might be looking at the wrong chart or something. I want to be able to stack a #5th or 6th interval on top of a 5th, and vice versa.
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 2:07 pm skip grips across octaves
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Bob,
Sorry about that...missed that you wanted to skip across octaves (wide grips). May look sometime.
To all you E9 players and C6 players...if your tuning gives you what you want...don't change. E9 does not give what C6 does and the other way around.
Dean P...there is more to come...it may address your concerns. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 2:53 pm Re: replys
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| ed packard wrote: |
| Mike...Only chap that has heard the CM13 is... |
fwiw, I messed around with this tuning on one of Ed's steels that Tom Baker had at the Sierra shop at one time.
My recollection was that I was imediatly able to play the Peanuts Theme using the basic pedals.
I'd like to try it again someday. |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 2:56 pm
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| Quote: |
In my opinion, in a band situation, if everybody is playing everything it can sound cluttered. I think it sounds better when the bass player plays the root, the guitar or keyboard plays in the mid range, and the steel soars above them in the high register.
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There's a lot of wisdom in this statement....... |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 3:49 pm Where are my notes?
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This chart and text may help answer some note availability questions.
Dean...I tried to NOT have adjacent halftones in the tuning....but if you mean like the Eb=>E=>F movement in/on E9...those moves are there, and on every string except 14.
Pete B...sorry, that was my 4X5 E9/A6/B6 with the EM13 on only P3P4R> to get EM13, E13, Em13, and EmM13. This one is the whole 13 series enchilada. I had 10 of the 4X5's made.
Curt...Not sure what that has to do with the tuning...you can play in whatever range fits best, but you can't play what you don't have. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2011 10:14 pm Re: skip grips across octaves
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| ed packard wrote: |
| E9 does not give what C6 does and the other way around. |
While this is "common wisdom", it's not exactly true. There are a lot of shared features between the two tunings. I've heard plenty of jazz chords from E9th players and plenty of country licks on the C6th. The two tunings lend themselves to certain phrasing styles, but a close analysis reveals similar musical possibilities. They are both extremely versatile.
My diatonic experiments of a decade ago suffered the same problem as your approach, Ed. While they were mathematically pure, they weren't versatile enough to cover all the bases. I now believe that if you have 12 or 14 strings on a steel guitar, it damn well better be able to handle any kind of music that anyone throws at it. Otherwise, what's the point?
The standard six-string guitar can handle anything from bluegrass to bebop, from Bach to ZZ Top, and more. A pedal steel copedent should be just as versatile. That's my current way of thinking, anyway.
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 4:50 am
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Ed
I just read your response so I am posting quite late as I only get online in the AM.
My critique of the 13th tuning is really a critique of steel tunings in general, with just a bit of emphasis on the increase in parallism, but I didn't say I had something better.
I am totally in agreement with Dean Parks'
comment on what seems to be missing:
| Quote: |
"One thing I'd miss from your tuning is adjacent half-steps for ma7/root, or 2nd/min3rd, or 6th/7th rubs within a voicing, which is a component of more modern voicings (post 1940s!).
Another is the E9 tuning's ability to move melody notes a full step. All non-classical genres seem to employ this sort of movement when the instrument allows, especially voice. |
Anyway let me say I always find your posts very interesting and am enthusiastic about your work in expanding PSG.
I have done a lot of experimenting with diatonic or scale(harp like) tunings in the past but have not been able to overcome the muddiness of sound having so many close intervals on adjacent strings.
I have 4 steels, a 14, 2 12strs & 8 str lap, all with different and non standard tunings.
Anyway since you asked, I will try to post my most used copedant that I have been using for quite some years, which is kind of a universal but includes the 6th and the 9th in the same key as opposed to E9/B6
This is certainly not the end all in tunings but I like it better than E9 or C6
or Uni.
Lately I have been playing a two-hand tapping instrument similar to the Chapman stick, but tuned in straight 4ths, and I am thinking of setting up a steel in 4ths on my 14 string that has 9p & 6K-
I'll keep you posted if you're interested
BTW - you mentioned an electronic changer before, do you mean an electro-mechanical or actually digital alteration of the sound? |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 7:31 am
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b0b.."a lot of features shared" = at least some are
not. Same will be true of the 13 series vs E9, C6, E9/B6, Leavitt, Alkire, etc.
Did the last CEG chart help in finding the "skip grip" structures you questioned?
Ron...thanks for posting your tuning/setup...I guess for you that the E9 and/or C6 did not fulfill your needs.
OK, now to put the train back on the track:
The 13 series structure is an experiment to see how many chords can be placed in a simple tuning/setup. Because it is a stacked thirds format, and chords are made of the "odd" intervals it follows an easy to remember approach to chord root location.
To illustrate in another format the chord power of the 13 series I present the following charts/lists. They are of C chords invoked by activating only one change...the result are the Cxx chords found on the strings noted, and identified by fret, string, and change.
Note that only four strings are presented here. These should be enough to make the point. This type of list
becomes enormous when two change, and three change chords are listed. If anyone wants the full 1,2,3 change list in an Excel workbook, I can email it to you. You enter the chord root and the fret, root string, and activated changes for the 3,4,5,6,&7 tone chords are shown.
Here are the charts/lists for C chords using just four strings a roots and single changes to activate.
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 9:08 am
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Ed
Your elaborate excel diagrams are great but I find them difficult to read. So maybe I'm completely wrong but it seems to me that the continuous stacked 3rds are a problem.
I don't know excel or tab - just regular music so here are a couple of very simple chords in very standard voicings.
Would it be possible to play these voicings on your 13?
Can you illustrate them to me in any key any octave? |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:14 am
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Sorry to say no- I'm a miserable steel player, started in my 50's having never played a stringed instrument, but I play it
anyway because I love it. I never play out & never had any intention of doing so,but I do play with some friends and family
for my own pleasure. I play with a jazz guitarist, usually once or twice a month but he does not like to record our sessions, can't blame him, he is a very professional guitarist, well known in NYC
jazz circles in years past, but he accepts my wretched technique because I have the harmonic knowledge and jazz phrasings from my previous musical background.
PS:
The C69 that I posted above is very simple, and thats what I mostly play, but in the past few months I've been playing more stick than steel
Last edited by Ron Castle on 27 Sep 2011 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:15 am adjacent halftone chord structures.
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Ron C,
Re FM7: CFA yes, CEA Yes, adjacent halftones (EF) seldom and hard to get because of the number of changes activated. Some full tone changes added to the tuning would get these kind of structures.
In my chord location program the CEFA would have been named C6s4(5). If the E had been left out it would have been named C6s4(3,5). I have not addressed the inversion tagging in the program as yet.
The stacked thirds approach is weak in adjacent halftones...but swap some of the less used halftone changes out for some full tone changes and ...
Re the electronic changer...yes, digital = no moving parts changer. So far the individual string pickup (semiconductor) is at the prototype stage. The P&L sensing(non contact) is also at the prototype stage. The multiplexor has been mapped out, chosen and is in the mail. The Uc/ADC is at the point that it gives EQ, Reverb, Volume, Envelope follower, and other basics.
Last edited by ed packard on 27 Sep 2011 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:28 am
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| ed packard wrote: |
b0b.."a lot of features shared" = at least some are not. Same will be true of the 13 series vs E9, C6, E9/B6, Leavitt, Alkire, etc.
Did the last CEG chart help in finding the "skip grip" structures you questioned? |
I guess we just disagree on this, Ed, as gentlemen often do. 
The CEG chart demonstrated my point: wide voicings of major and minor triads are hard to find and counter-intuitive in the 13 series copedent. As for jazz chords, it seems to me that they are all fairly easy to find in Buddy Emmons' C6th, which is virtually the standard.
Arrangement theory teaches us that there should be wider intervals in the low notes, and that close intervals work better in the higher registers. Alvino Rey was a master of this concept, and his influence on modern tunings should not be overlooked.
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:32 am Gentlemen???
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Who dat?
Any disagreement is in the use of some, all, any etc. |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:36 am
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Ed
Your program is wrong, CEFA is the second inversion of FACE : FM7. It seems to be assuming that the lowest member is the root.
But my example above illustrates my problem
with the voicings available on your 13th tuning- I hope you don't get offended..
but if you say one needs added changes to get these very standard voicings, I think you're getting overly complex.
This instrument is hard enuff to play!! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 10:48 am
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There's an old saying: the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
These ideas for new tunings may look good in theory, but the real issue is what do they sound like?
We will never know until somebody uses them. We need to hear some music played on them before we can decide whether or not they have any practical use.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 11:10 am
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That is quite true, however my tuning is not so far out- many people use the middle D in C6 (BE on experimantal instruments) and many people use both the G down to F, and middle E up to F
and my 1st two pedals are C6 MAJ9 (pdl 7) just split
The nice aspect of having the middle D and being able
to lower the G to F allows for all those close interval 13ths or minor 9th etc |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 11:17 am
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Ron,
No offense...I intentionally wrote the program to solve adjacent odd interval chords in terms of the lowest notes being used as the root for naming the chords...It may not be your "convention" but it is self consistent.
Have you noticed...One chap wants adjacent interval capability, another wants full tone changes, another wants widely spaced intervals, another wants scale running capability without moving the bar,..the mechanics to do all this in one tuning is a bit challenging...but with a programmable electronic changer???
Mike...being practical has not much to do with it...exploring and having fun has. If you want to know badly enough, rerod/retune one of your PSGs and see if it fits your desires. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Sep 2011 12:03 pm
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| ed packard wrote: |
| Have you noticed...One chap wants adjacent interval capability, another wants full tone changes, another wants widely spaced intervals, another wants scale running capability without moving the bar,..the mechanics to do all this in one tuning is a bit challenging...but with a programmable electronic changer??? |
Not really so challenging - E9th and C6th both have all of these capabilities today.
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