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Topic: Chords |
ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 17 Oct 2011 5:34 am |
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b0b...Hard to respond to the "bar hopping" statement unless Harmonizing is defined. Do you mean in 3rds, 5ths, triads, 4 tones, 5 tones, 6 tones or 7 tones?
In the notation above the 4 tone scalar (major scale)harmonization is shown going across the neck for the key of C. The same can be done for 3rds, 5ths etc. These chords use adjacent strings as adjacent intervals in the chord, and all chords are on two frets (0&2 for C).
Further, this can be done using any of the other strings as the scale root on the same 2 frets.
And of course, the same harmonization possibilities exist for going up the neck using any string as the scale root. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2011 7:12 am
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You have responded, Ed. I understand the theory behind your copedent. I find it interesting from a theory standpoint but deficient in providing what is expected from a pedal steel on the bandstand.
_________________
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 17 Oct 2011 7:41 am traditions and expectations
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| I would suggest that "what is expected from a Pedal Steel on the bandstand" is a matter of tradition...both for the player and the listener. What has not been heard can not be "expected". |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 4:58 am
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Ed
Thanks for the standard notation. Unfortunately, I have to say that your 13th tuning does exactly what I suspected & complained about early on in this discussion- excessive parallelism
Re: Chart 5
When we think of harmonizing a scalar pattern we think most often of the scale notes being the highest notes - not the bottom notes- we read a song from a fake book emphasizing the melody by placing it on top- so that it stands out.
In addition, we rarely ever hear a scale passage , from 3 to 5 or even 7 notes
harmonized by marching up the scale with its natural chords ie, IM7,ii7, iii7, IVM7, V7 etc etc
often we use inversions of far fewer set of chord roots
eg the notes
C....D....E....F....G get harmonized by
I....V....I....V7...I or
ii7..V....vi...IV...V
or something of that nature- because the structure of a tune dictates what chords harmonize each note, and this pattern of chord progressions repeats for every 8 or 16 bars.
But since the instrument is tuned entirely in stacked thirds all the chords that can be played are arranged in stacked 3rds or 5ths (two 3rds) or 7ths (three 3rds) or 9ths (four 3rds) resulting
in a sameness of sound that would be even
harder to get around then say C6th tuning
The fact that any of the 3rd intervals can be alltered via pedals & knees does not diminish the sameness of voicings
from page 2 of this thread
How do you play thes 4note inversions on your tuning?
From what I see you cannot play these (Oh so common) voicings
or maybe I'm just dumber than I think
maybe its there? |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 7:17 am
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But since the instrument is tuned entirely in stacked thirds all the chords that can be played are arranged in stacked 3rds or 5ths (two 3rds) or 7ths (three 3rds) or 9ths (four 3rds) resulting
in a sameness of sound that would be even
harder to get around then say C6th tuning
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That's what I was thinking Ron. Maybe a redundancy. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 9:23 am finding chords/note combinations on the 13 series tuning/set
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Above in notation, the 4 tone harmonizing was shown going across the neck. Here it is going up the neck from fret 0 to fret 12. It can be repeated for fret 12 thru fret 24, etc.
I have taken the liberty of adjusting the staff for the purpose…guess why.
CHART 6
Here is the same thing in terms of the notes and neck.
CHART 7
Ron…Here is your answer in terms of the neck for NC.
Edited out to avoid confusion.
HOW and WHY:
If you want to see if a chord, or combination of notes cn be had in this tuning as presented, see if you can line your notes up in a colm by moving each note left or right by a halftone.
The presentation of these charts and comments is to answer my own question at the start of the thread re tunings/setups/copeds used influenced by the need for chords. Several folk have shown what they did to the common tunings to get what they wanted. The same can be done with the 13 series. If you skip intervals in a chord you will have to skip strings. If you want to pull full tones, you will have to change the pulls accordingly. If you want to do the Alvino Rey thing and get a chord for a single P/L then do it…that is what folk did to E7 to get E9, and then merge into E9 the A6, B6, D? etc. and then add Ps and Ls to get what they wanted.
Last edited by ed packard on 19 Oct 2011 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 18 Oct 2011 4:52 pm
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Ed
You are going to think me incredibly dense, but I don't see it.
| Quote: |
| If you want to see if a chord, or combination of notes cn be had in this tuning as presented, see if you can line your notes up in a colm by moving each note left or right by a halftone. |
How can I get, say Middle C with the B underneath it? I don't see any chords that are not arranged in thirds regardless of whether you can lower or raise a string 1/2
step. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 8:26 am illustrated...how to find note groups (chords)
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Well, the color coded neck did not serve as an answer, so I will edit it out.
Let’s try a note distribution on the neck approach. The neck diagrams will be shown for the NC condition with only the notes of concern shown.
The basic moves are that any string may be raised or lowered by on halftone to see if the notes can be lined up on a single fret (column). Here is the neck for Ron’s FM7 inversion = C E F A bottom to top.
The first C E F A will be found by: Moving the C found on fret 1 string 5 left by one halftone to fret 0. The E can be found on fret 0 string 1. The F is found on fret 0 string 3. The A is found on fret 0 string 2, hence C E F A is found on fret 0.
A second C E F A is found by: Use the C on fret 1 string 5 as is. Move the E found on fret 2 string 4 to fret 1. Move the F on fret 0 string one to fret 1. Move the A on fret 0 string 2 to fret 1. This gives C E F A on fret 1. See how many other places you can find this FM7 inversion.
Now for C Eb F C.
Move the C on fret 5 string 6 left one to fret 4.
Leave the Eb on fret 4 string 5 where it is.
Move the F on fret 3 string 4 to fret 4.
Leave the C found on fret 3 string 2 to fret 4.
There are more.
Now for C F G Bb.
Use the C on fret 1 string 5 as is.
Use the F on fret 1 string 1 as is.
Move the G on fret 1 string 3 left one to fret 1
Use the Bb found on fret 1 string 2 as is.
The next question had to do with getting a B beneath a C.
Move the C on fret 0 string 8 to fret 1.
Move the B on string 9 fret 2 to fret 1
Happy fishing. |
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 9:40 am
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Ed
| Quote: |
The first C E F A will be found by: Moving the C found on fret 1 string 5 left by one halftone to fret 0. The E can be found on fret 0 string 1. The F is found on fret 0 string 3. The A is found on fret 0 string 2, hence C E F A is found on fret 0.
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True - I see that now, but it requires 3 changes to be activated at once just to play this simple chord
Same chord/voicing can be played on std E9
fret1 on str 5,4,3&2 no changes
It can be played on C6
fret5 on str 5,4,3&2 using P4 only
Since such a simple chord needs three changes to be played I don't see it as an improvement but a further complication |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 19 Oct 2011 9:59 am Improvement???
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| Ron...Whoever said it was an improvement..it is just an alternative approach...another is. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 23 Oct 2011 10:35 am chords...types and locations
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RE “excessive parallelism “…what is “excessive” is a matter of taste, and a matter of usage. If you have something, you can use it or not…if you don’t have something, you can’t use it.
RE “marching”…there are other ways to use the chords in the illustration.
RE “three changes” etc. …I have no problem using 4 on my 4X5 E9/A6/B6/13 series unit.
OK, onward and upward; The claim was made by a chap not presently participating, that the more types of chord, and more places to find them on the neck is a plus (paraphrased). Lets look at the CM13 NC neck. First the NC neck as notes so you can find your favorite chords.
CM13 NC NECK NOTES KEY OF C.
And for those that prefer to work in intervals,
CM13 NC NECK INTERVALS KEY OF C.
And for good measure, the chord type chart for NC.
NC CHORD CHART.
Using the CM13 NECK NOTES chart, and the assigned changes, let’s see how many 4 tone C chord types we can find on fret 0 using string 8 as the root string.
CM13 4 TONE C CHORDS, FRET 0, STRING 8 AS ROOT.
And some comments.
COMMENTS.
There are C notes on every string. A list of C chord types can be made for each of these C notes. If you run the lists out, you will find the same chord types at several places on the neck. This allows a degree of flexibility in morphing from chord to chord in a progression. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Curt Langston
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Posted 23 Oct 2011 1:08 pm
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Obviously Ed is a smart guy, but sheesh, does this alternative tuning really offer substantial advantages over E9th and C6th?
I'm probably not getting the idea here.....
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 23 Oct 2011 1:36 pm CEG to FAC
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CEG notes into FAC notes:
b0b,
NC => CEG on strings 8,7,6 fret 0.
Find FAC on strings 10,9,8, fret 0…or is this considered a grip change?
NC => CEG on strings 8,7,6 fret 0.
A forward slant anchored on str 8 fret 0 gets CFA…= changing frets?
NC => CEG on strings 8,7,6 fret 0.
C, str 8 fret 0 to fret 1.
E, str 7 fret 0 to fret 1.
G, str 6 fret 0 to fret 1.
Puts CEG on fret 1.
Keep C on str 8 fret 1.
Release E on str 7 fret 1 becomes F on str 7 fret 1.
Release G on str 6 fret 1 becomes C on str 6 fret 1.
The result is FAC on str 8,7,6 and fret 1.
Also has C on str 5 fret 1.
Or find CEG on str 8,7,6 fret 0.
Find FAC on str 10,9,8 fret 0.
Try the C, Am7, Dm7,G7 prog’ all on a single fret (0).
I am sure that the 13 series will not do some things the way you are used to doing them onE9,C6,E9/B6 unis, and the other way around.
Curt, What would you consider "substantial advantages"...and who said that it would? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Oct 2011 2:21 pm
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In real music you'd typically want to change from C to F without jumping up a 4th or down a 5th. People usually use figures like C E G to C F A, or E G C to F A C. You don't normally go from 1 3 5 of the I chord to 1 3 5 of the IV because it sounds sort of square.
Every chord has inversions where the lowest note is not the root. The first inversion starts with the 3. The second inversion starts with the 5. These are very common in all kinds of music.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Curt Langston
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Posted 24 Oct 2011 10:54 am
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| Quote: |
| Curt, What would you consider "substantial advantages"...and who said that it would? |
Nobody said it would, I guess....
If there are not substantial benefits, then what is the reason for all of this?
I would guess that this is just a hobby for you, so, I can understand that aspect. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Oct 2011 12:00 pm
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It appears a big mental exercise in an alternate way of doing it. I see it as interesting, but I kinda like the almost diatonic utility of the E9 neck. This tuning _appears_ almost melody-hostile, as stepwise motion seems a huge, but not insurmountable, PITA.
That said, I see nothing wrong with daring to be different.
I see nothing wrong with answering unasked questions, but this tuning would make my hands and/or brain work substantially harder than they're accustomed. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Oct 2011 2:19 pm Inversions
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Well, now you know how to use the NC CM13 neck layout to determine what can and cannot be done on the CM13 structure. I am fully aware that if you find what you are looking for, it won’t be the way you want it (wrong fingers, too many fingers required, too many changes needed, doesn’t do it like my present tuning/setup/coped does)…it has always been thus.
Since the subject of inversions has been broached, try some 3 and 4 tone C inversions on the NC neck…and for no other reason than the thread was about “chords”, I toss another chart at you. The subject is inversions, and this is one of the studies (short form) I ran on inversions. It is from the head and input by the fingers, so errors are likely…have fun.
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 31 Oct 2011 7:46 am Modal scale harmonizing chords
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Let’s look into chords from the modal scale standpoint. The C major scale has been used in this thread…it is a “modal scale”.
For info on modal scales, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_scale
For info on modal scale usage in JAZZ check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz#Modal_jazz
For our PSG application we will use the CM13 structure to deal with the first seven “modes” often called “church modes”. Here is the CM13 neck as we have used it for finding chords. Notice that the open strings have the notes C E G B D F A of the C Major = Ionian mode scale. Notice that any group of adjacent strings (say four for now) provide chords that harmonize the C Major (Ionian) scale…a very convenient arrangement.
If we apply b3 and b7 to the tuning, we get Cm13, which when raised two frets gives us Dm13 = D F A C E G B…these become string notes, and the rest of the C Major (Ionian mode) scale harmonizing chords.
We can harmonize the other six church modes using the same method that was used for the C Major = Ionian mode, and we get the same list of chords as shown in notation form in a previous post (see above posts). For the DORIAN mode, just start with Dm7 (for four tone chords) and proceed thru the scale to the next Dm7. Do the same for the PHRYGIAN mode starting with Em7, etc.. The chord types that were used to harmonize the C Major scale are the same to be used for the “church modal” scales…and so are the notes.
• Ionian (I) =CM7
• Dorian (II) =Dm7
• Phrygian (III) =Em7
• Lydian (IV) =FM7
• Mixolydian (V)=G7
• Aeolian (VI) =Am7
• Locrian (VII) =Bm7b5
If your tuning/setup allows 3,4,5,6,or 7 tone close harmonizing of the C Major scale, you have what is needed to harmonize the Church Modal scales.
There are many more scales = modal, ethnic, jazz, etc., but these require other chord types for harmonizing purposes. |
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Jan Viljoen
From:
Pretoria, South Africa
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Posted 2 Nov 2011 6:53 am Chords
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Hi Blokes,
This thread has developed a life of its own from where I looked at it.
This has been the most intellectual and entertaining discussion of the pedal steel that I have read.
It concerns the existing copedents and a possible revolutionary new copedent.
My one Rand worth is exactly what has been suggested.
Build/rerod a psg with the new copedent and test it.
Easy as that.
I can only mention as well that Sez Adamson here from South Africa changed his C neck on his Emmons so that he can play fully jazz chords with 4 picks.
His songs are also on the Jazz web.
http://www.steelguitarjazz.com/music.html
Good Luck and steel on!
JV.
_________________
Sierra S10, Stage One, Gibson BR4, Framus, Guya 6&8, Hofner lap, Custom mandolins, Keilwerth sax.
Roland Cube 80XL, Peavey112-Valve King and Special, Marshall 100VS. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 3 Nov 2011 9:20 am and all that Jazz
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Hello Jan, Thanks for the link…fits right in.
The CM13 (13 series) has been laid out in it’s simplest form = using string 8 as the C root, and using only halftone changes for each string. From this one can decide what other changes they might want such as full tone, several strings changed by one pull etc.
The way I presently have it set up is with 5Ps and 5Ls.
It might also be setup to use any string as the root for the M13 by retuning and moving the rodding accordingly.
A decade or so ago I started by integrating the 13 series EM13 into my 4X5 14 string using P3,P4,R> for the 13 series with the E root on string 11, and using the tuning, Ps & Ls as per the E9/A6/B6 universal setup.
More “stuff” here:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/PSG%20TUNING%20STRUCTURES/
The CM13 is basically a two octave 7 tone chord structure system, whereas the uni is a single octave 4 tone chord approach. A single P or L can be used to convert the top 4 or 5 strings to the 4 tone, or 4 tone + 9th configuration giving both worlds.
I am debating whether or not to continue in modals…probably not as the tools have been shown on how to “evaluate” the tuning/setup. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2011 10:53 am
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I'm enjoying this one, we do play a "machine" so exploring the limitations and possibilities makes sense, although some of it seems a bit academic.
My desire is to end up with something emotionally musical. While I really enjoy Bill Evans on piano, I think more people get into David David Lanz, or Victor Borge... I like them as well.
Anybody who has tackled the blues on six string guitar has heard the seemingly incongruous way that three note 7th chords and 4 note 9ths and 13ths sound much fatter and "bigger" than their 6 string variants.
While there are often notes just out of reach (copedentially speaking) that might make it easier to play a particular song or voicing, there's something to be said for getting the most out of what we have.
Personally, the E9th tuning with modern changes gives me everything I need. When I was playing with Jimmy Herring, we would arrange chord changes so I played three or four notes in a complex chord stack while he played the rest in a "giant guitar" sound. I generally play across genres in country, pop, rock, and blues, and I really enjoy looking for color tones to float on top of what other instruments are doing. I have the same excitement when playing triad tuning reso or lap steel.
I admire those deeply involved in the search for expanded chord or melodic availability, but I want to hear the music, and if it moves people, it's a great tuning. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 14 Nov 2011 12:18 pm Adj str h'tones, melody on top, chord locations, etc.
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Hey Georgia! Machine is about right.
Time to get back to work here. First to enlarge on some answers given before:
Ron..about adjacent string with a halftone separation...that can be done with any two strings that are one or two halftones apart in the basic tuning,, and using only two changes for each. Since any string may be used as a root, then the choice of where the halftone are in a chord is probably not a limitation.
Someone brought up the number of places on the neck a given chord might be found...here is an answer for the C6 chord its inversion Am7i...four adjacent strings using any string as the root. C6 chart below.
Same for any 4 tone chord. C7, Cm7, C7 are illustrated here:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/PSG%20TUNING%20STRUCTURES/CM13EX1/?start=all
Question = how many chord types can be found on a single fret by activating only one change per chord? Chart for frets 0 & 1...
Other fret charts at:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/PSG%20TUNING%20STRUCTURES/CM13EX1/?start=all
Question was...What about scalar harmonizing using 1,3,5,octave note? next chart:
The more I look, the more I see!
ZIRC bar holiday sale ...info at:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=214462&highlight=zirc
Last edited by ed packard on 22 Nov 2011 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 22 Nov 2011 7:53 am 4,5,7,12?
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I seem to remember a comment re tuning's from somewhere on the Forum that sounded like ...5 strings/notes per octave is better than 4. Makes one wonder if 6,7,8,12 would be better than 5. Is it the number of notes per octave, or the actual notes/intervals per octave that is important?
In any case...re the 13 series tuning structure, if 5 is the magic number...take any string as the root and raise it a halftone via the change, then lower the 9th by a halftone if it is not already a b9, and you have an assortment of 5 tones per octave locations available.
ZIRC bar holiday sale ...info at:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=214462&highlight=zirc |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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