The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic Poll: How long before you tried other copedants?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Reply to topic

How long before you tried copedants other than E9th?
right away, I didnt start on E9th
20%
 20%  [ 15 ]
right away, I have a double neck
14%
 14%  [ 11 ]
fairly soon, I had a freind /teacher with another copedant
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
months
10%
 10%  [ 8 ]
1 year
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
More than a year
28%
 28%  [ 21 ]
never
20%
 20%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 75

Author Topic:  Poll: How long before you tried other copedants?
Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 4:55 pm    
Reply with quote

At what point in your development as a pedal steel guitar player did you try another tuning or copedant other than standard (to the extent there IS a standard)E9th?

any observations? is it essential to experiment with other tunings right away in your opinions? not necessary at all? etc.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Dave Zirbel


From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 5:08 pm    
Reply with quote

E9 was the focus for a few years until I got D-10. Learned enough C6 to fake my way through some simple changes. I can play many tunings now (20 + years later) but haven't mastered any of them..... Confused
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Georg Sørtun


From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 6:02 pm    
Reply with quote

IMHO, If one wants to play somewhat standard tunes in a somewhat standard way, it is important to learn to master a somewhat standard tuning/copedant before making major changes. Otherwise one may end up not learning to master anything.

I started testing out various copedants after 8-9 years, when I had sort of developed my own sound/style on a standard E9 tuning. After a couple of years of testing and rearranging I had found my basic copedant - which for the most part is close enough to the original to let me play "standard" when I want to.

For the last 20 years I have "fine-tuned" copedant-details on my 'Twin-Tuned extended E major w/cromatics', and will probably keep on making minor changes to it till I stop playing for good.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

C Dixon

 

From:
Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 7:23 pm    
Reply with quote

Coming from a Triple neck Fender Custom lapsteel with:

1. A6

2. E13th

3. C6

tunings on it............

My first PSG was an S-8 Fender 400 with 6 pedals and no knee levers. Because of the awesome ease of changing copedents in a hearbeat on this cable driven system, and the fact that I was thoroughly trained in musical theory, I had many tunings on it.

I was always messing with the tuning, trying to get the best resolves when playing many kinds of songs.

Remember, NO vol pedal. So I used both feet, often pressing 4 pedals (2 per foot) at one time.

So when I traded it in on my Emmons '69 P/P with 9 and 2, I was right at home.

With one caveat. I do not play C6 like all the courses teach and players do. I play the C6 neck like I believe JB WOULD have played it, had he gone to pedals. Remember, He is credited with coming up with the tuning. I added 2 more pedals and 10 more knee levers; striving to get the best possible chance of chord and melody resolve and progression; using those copedents that evolved thru yrs of trial and error.

I have always been saddened that most others chose to go the "jamm/jazz/western Swing" type playing on it; rather than to strive to get the best melody/musical flow out of it; as Jerry did.

But then what do I know? I am just a lone voice in the wilderness.

c.

_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Brett Lanier

 

From:
Madison, TN
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 9:44 pm    
Reply with quote

C. Dixon, my first pedal steel story is a lot like yours. It started out as a stock A6/E7 tuned fender 1000(which i traded a les paul for on an impulse), and after a couple of years I had seven pedals hooked up to one neck that was tuned to A6 with a chromatic string on top. I really wish I still had some of the old copedent charts I made. After the fact, I realized that with every copedent and tuning change I made, it became closer and closer to the standard E9 (only "backwards").
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Clete Ritta


From:
San Antonio, Texas
Post  Posted 1 Nov 2010 10:15 pm    
Reply with quote

Played my Starter for over a year before I got a Mullen.
I soon added a vertical lever to its pretty standard Emmons E9 setup.
When I got a Fessy U12 E9/B6 in parts a few years later I started monkeying around with different changes.
Its my test guitar, for now setup as an Ext E9 5X5.

Clete
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Brendan Mitchell


From:
Melbourne Australia
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 2:50 am    
Reply with quote

Never did , still playing what I started on 30 odd years ago . Haven't got far either .
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 4:44 am    
Reply with quote

I feel better after hearng your comments and seeing the poll results. Ive stayed with E9th for the most part until getting a fender 1000. I tried B6 with Sneaky Petes copedant, and a cropped E9th on that and failed miserably.
Like you Carl, no volume pedal and no knee levers so both feet on the pedals. E lowers and Raises on the right foot.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

C Dixon

 

From:
Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 7:43 am    
Reply with quote

Brett Lanier wrote:
C. Dixon, my first pedal steel story is a lot like yours. It started out as a stock A6/E7 tuned fender 1000(which i traded a les paul for on an impulse), and after a couple of years I had seven pedals hooked up to one neck that was tuned to A6 with a chromatic string on top. I really wish I still had some of the old copedent charts I made. After the fact, I realized that with every copedent and tuning change I made, it became closer and closer to the standard E9 (only "backwards").


Very Happy Yep!
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

C Dixon

 

From:
Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 8:39 am    
Reply with quote

Ben Jones wrote:
I feel better after hearng your comments and seeing the poll results. Ive stayed with E9th for the most part until getting a fender 1000. I tried B6 with Sneaky Petes copedant, and a cropped E9th on that and failed miserably.
Like you Carl, no volume pedal and no knee levers so both feet on the pedals. E lowers and Raises on the right foot.


I have a friend, (Don Fulmer) who, after years of playing a PSG, gave up his vol pedal all together. He contols the volume with his right AND left hands (within limits of course). And would you believe, he plays an Emmons LeGrande, no less. Well believe it!

Who evah hoid ah such? Rolling Eyes

He uses both feet and has 3 knee levers on his right knee. And one of them is a vertical.

I did this too for years, before I 'jes had to "follow suit" and get me one. Mad

"Jimmah days and buddie edmunds got one, and ah 'jes GOTS tah have one too! Cuz when da swellin' goes down in mah fangers, ole Bud gunna make me a star! HeeHee Razz

Please click on the following link. Scroll down and listen and watch Don play. He really has a nice touch. And a dearer friend, one could not find. Smile

http://www.hsga.org/new_design/video.htm

Jesus has endowed man (as opposed to ANY other creature) the ability to create, and to adapt, to unbelievable plateaus.

But then this would be understandable, wouldn't it?


"Let us make man in our image after our likeness".........So Jesus created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them."

Just imagine ANY other species of ANY kind of animal ever making a Golden Gate bridge or an Eiffel Tower, etc, etc, or for that matter, a "Pedal Steel Guitar"

!


Praise His holy name,

c.

_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Barry Hyman


From:
upstate New York, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 9:27 am    
Reply with quote

Ben -- for a radical I'm often rather conservative. I am a great believer in not changing tunings and not changing copedants, but in trying to stick with one thing long enough to actually get good at it. I have seen too many music students over the years who start on something, then start on something else, and ultimately get nowhere.

Adding a new pull to your steel is one thing, but changing to a totally new tuning or copedant is somewhere between difficult and downright counterproductive. Pedal steel guitar really is the most complicated musical instrument on Earth, bar none, and I would advise against doing anything that makes the task of learning it more difficult.

I am still using essentially the same copedant that came on my S-12 MSA Classic back in 1974 (before that I had an Emmons doubleneck but it didn't have any knee levers at all so I don't count that) and all I have done since is add the vertical B to Bb pull, and have a couple of my other pulls change more strings. (Now I have my B pedal raise all three G# strings, and my LKL raises both F# strings to G.) But I'm basically still playing the wonderful old MSA Extended E9th copedant (thanks Reece!) and, thankfully, after 36 years I am starting to get a handle on it. Much of the value of its design took me decades to figure out, which is why I advise people to stick with what they've got rather than constantly be tinkering with it. But that's just my opinion...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 9:35 am    
Reply with quote

I hear ya Barry and yet I am intrigued by people talking about ditching the ninth string or Daniel Lanois tuning or Tyack's with the E on the bottom or the sacred steel tunings. Since I play in rock bands, its possible that the E9th tuning isnt the absolute best tuning for me, maybe it could be tweaked a little for my specific needs. However like you, I beleive in getting good at what you have FIRST. I also really enjoy trying to play classic country too! AND most of the instructional materials use the 'standrad" E9th tuning so thats another reason Ive for the most part not strayed or experimented very much. I'm just not sure at what point my knowledge of E9th is "good enough" to allow me the freedom and confidence to experiment with other tunings. I am bouyed(did I spell that right?) by the comments and poll results that indicate it takes some time for most to reach that point. When I tried B6th I realized I wasnt there yet,I wasnt ready to spend the time on it, when I needed to devote that time to E9th still. Coming up on my five year anniversary of playing psg , I find myself reflecting a bit on my progress or lack thereof.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Barry Hyman


From:
upstate New York, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 12:14 pm    
Reply with quote

Hey Ben -- why don't you post (or send me) your tuning and copedant and I'll reply with some concrete suggestions, some of which might be new or interesting to you. Work is slow for me this time of year and I seem to have plenty of empty hours that could be filled...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Georg Sørtun


From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 12:15 pm    
Reply with quote

Ben, as you mention that you might concider changing tuning to something more suited for rock... there are many variants around intended for folks who want to play mostly non-country without ditching the country-sound altogether. Once players have gotten their copedant right for themselves, their tunings for the most part just work - for them.

My 'S10 E major twin tuning' is a bit too radical for most, me thinks, but it may work as an example of unusual tunings.
I had to modify the PSG a bit to get even strings because of the strange string/note order. Having extra parts in case I want to change back to E9 is a must, as I can't just change strings and move rods around.

My unusual tuning intentionally allows me to move between it and my "standard" S10 E9 PSG with relative ease since only string 7 and 9 are different. I haven't found moving to my S12 Uni much of a problem either, but I do of course find it easier to play my now (for the most part) 22 year old 'twin tuning' than universal or E9, no matter the type of music.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 1:06 pm    
Reply with quote

Barry Hyman wrote:
Hey Ben -- why don't you post (or send me) your tuning and copedant and I'll reply with some concrete suggestions, some of which might be new or interesting to you. Work is slow for me this time of year and I seem to have plenty of empty hours that could be filled...


Thanks for that very kind offer Barry. I dont have my copedant diagramed out anywhere . I also just still feel I dont have time to experiment yet. So even if you thought up a couple good options I would probably have to shelve em for a while still yet. Embarassed

Once I feel ready, i am pretty sure my first experiment will be putting the low E on the bottom string ala Dan Tyack (a player I admire and who often plays stylisticly what I am more or less aspiring to...sorry for the near constant leg humping there Dan Razz )

Georg, very interesting!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Jack Stoner


From:
Kansas City, MO
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 2:34 pm    
Reply with quote

I started out on lap steel in the early 50's so different tunings were common. When I got a pedal steel guitar it was a D-10 and I had both E9th and C6th.

As far as "copedents" which to me means pedal setups, not the "tunings", I've used the Emmons setup on E9th since I started on pedals in 1969. The setup I have on my D-10 Franklin, except for changing the 1st string raise from a half to full tone, is the same as it was delivered in 1981.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 2:50 pm    
Reply with quote

Jack Stoner wrote:
I started out on lap steel in the early 50's so different tunings were common. When I got a pedal steel guitar it was a D-10 and I had both E9th and C6th.

As far as "copedents" which to me means pedal setups, not the "tunings", I've used the Emmons setup on E9th since I started on pedals in 1969. The setup I have on my D-10 Franklin, except for changing the 1st string raise from a half to full tone, is the same as it was delivered in 1981.


Thats right, I bet the guys starting on lap steels have a completely different perspective on it. I didnt even think abou that.

Interesting defintion of copedent from wikipedia:
"Copedent is a table used to describe the tuning and pedal arrangement on a pedal steel guitar. The term was coined by Tom Bradshaw in an early 1970s article in Guitar Player magazine. It is short for "ChOrd PEDal arrangemENT". According to Bradshaw, the term is pronounced "co-PEE-dent". A complete copedent includes string gauges, and whether a string is plain or wound. A complete copedent also indicates the degree to which a string is altered, using "+" to indicate a half-step raise, and "-" to indicate a half-step lower."

I did not know it was pronounced with a "PEE", I have been saying it, and spelling it incorrectly. Embarassed
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 3:47 pm    
Reply with quote

I like to experiment with copedants.
If you play rock, the first thing I would recomend is tune to Eb9, so you have open E and open A in a bar-able position.
There's an incredible amount of rock that uses those chords... from Johnny B. Good to Purple Haze.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

C Dixon

 

From:
Duluth, GA USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 3:56 pm    
Reply with quote

Jack Stoner wrote:
I started out on lap steel in the early 50's so different tunings were common. When I got a pedal steel guitar it was a D-10 and I had both E9th and C6th.

As far as "copedents" which to me means pedal setups, not the "tunings", I've used the Emmons setup on E9th since I started on pedals in 1969. The setup I have on my D-10 Franklin, except for changing the 1st string raise from a half to full tone, is the same as it was delivered in 1981.


Amen my dear brother Jack Stoner.

Folks, hear me please.

IF you are not well versed in deep detail of how PSG's work, and/or how music is assembled, buy a standard 8 X 5, D-10 and learn IT from the North Pole to the South Pole and from East and West; lack tha backah yo hand!

And then and only then, mess wid it! For you could put every Paul franklin pedal and knee lever; he EVER thought of; and you are not likely to play any thing one bit better.

Because PF is probably one of THE most creative musical minds to have ever sat behind a guitar. It is not likely that anyone could match his statistics. The same goes for Curley Chalker and others, not to mentioned THE greatest of all, Buddy Emmons.

So learn the evolved "standard", until your "musical" ears scream for something you do not have. And even then, please sleep on it, afore you sign on the dotted line. Winking

And may Jesus guide you 'evah' step of the way precious people,

c.

_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 3:57 pm    
Reply with quote

Pete Burak wrote:
I like to experiment with copedants.
If you play rock, the first thing I would recomend is tune to Eb9, so you have open E and open A in a bar-able position.
There's an incredible amount of rock that uses those chords... from Johnny B. Good to Purple Haze.


woah ...thats a good idea! I noticed when RR is playing Voodoo CHile he's in Eb. I guess on the downside you loose the hammerons for those keys?
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 5:28 pm    
Reply with quote

I hammer-on/off from a half-step below. It's more Rock sounding than hammering on above the open E.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Barry Hyman


From:
upstate New York, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 6:06 pm    
Reply with quote

Ben -- I wasn't going to suggest changes to your copedant -- remember I'm the one who was saying you should shy away from that! I wanted you to post your copedant so I could suggest to you interesting things you could do with it besides just "mashing" the A and B pedals.

You don't need to post a copedant chart -- just describe it in words. From what you have said already, I am assuming you have 10 string E9th, usual tuning (from lowest up that is B, D, E, F#, G#, B, E, G#, D#, and F#). And I am assuming you have the usual A, B, and C pedals and a knee that raises your E strings to F and a knee that lowers your E strings to D#. The only question is what other pedals and knee levers you have, and where are your knee levers positioned? (That is important in terms of figuring out what pulls you can engage at the same time. The same knee can't go left and right at the same time. Smile )

Once again, I would maintain that for most of us, most of the time, the way to get out of a "rut" is to learn new things about what you have already, rather than take the machine apart and put it back together different.

Different tunings on lap steel are one thing to learn -- they all have things in common, and they all usually share common intervals between strings. But when you start adding pedals and knee levers to a steel, one copedant is very different from another, and even if you just move one knee lever from left knee to right knee, with all the same pulls, I am sure most people would be making the occasional mistake on it for months. So don't change what you've got -- just tell us what you've got, and wonderful new tricks will pop out of the hat like magic!

What Pete Burak is doing is pretty cool -- to have the same relative tuning, and all the same pulls, just one fret lower -- and it has several advantages, as he points out, and the learning curve is minimal. That wouldn't set you back more than about 15 minutes. But changing your tuning (in terms of the intervals between the strings) or changing your pedals and knees is going to put you back in the woodshed for quite a while.
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 2 Nov 2010 6:49 pm    
Reply with quote

Pete Burak wrote:
I hammer-on/off from a half-step below. It's more Rock sounding than hammering on above the open E.


Thanks Pete, are you sayin you hammer on/off from Eb when the song is in the key of E?

Lets see Barry, three pedals in an emmons setup, E raises and lowers on the left knees. Vert knee lever lowers 5 and nothing else, RKL lowers 2 half/whole step and 9 a whole step, RKR lowers 7 and raises 1 a half step. I can get the full step raise on 1 by pulling behind the bar and engaging the lever. I think my right knees are reversed from your typical setup. I have considered changing em but dont know how to work on my guitar (another thing I need to learn).
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Barry Hyman


From:
upstate New York, USA
Post  Posted 4 Nov 2010 5:07 am    
Reply with quote

Ben -- I assume you mean RKL lowers the ninth string a half-step, from D to C#. And RKR lowers the seventh string how far? From F# to F?

One more question, bro -- can you activate your left knee levers and your vertical knee lever at the same time? Most of the interesting chords I have been getting excited about involve the vertical B to Bb lower with the levers that raise or lower the E strings. Let me know and I'll bounce back some ideas of fun things you can do with the setup you have.

And don't think you can't play rock and roll with the standard E9th setup you've got. You can get every chord and every scale ever heard in rock and roll history, no problem! Very Happy
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ben Jones


From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
Post  Posted 4 Nov 2010 5:46 am    
Reply with quote

Barry Hyman wrote:
Ben -- I assume you mean RKL lowers the ninth string a half-step, from D to C#. And RKR lowers the seventh string how far? From F# to F?

One more question, bro -- can you activate your left knee levers and your vertical knee lever at the same time? Most of the interesting chords I have been getting excited about involve the vertical B to Bb lower with the levers that raise or lower the E strings. Let me know and I'll bounce back some ideas of fun things you can do with the setup you have.

And don't think you can't play rock and roll with the standard E9th setup you've got. You can get every chord and every scale ever heard in rock and roll history, no problem! Very Happy


Barry, RKR lowers 7 to F#, RKL is 2 and 9. oops Embarassed I can play blues and rock just fine on E9th...BUT there might be room for improvement or tweaking especially on the lower strings.I cant hit my vert and left knees at the same time. Rock on brother!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP