| Author |
Topic: Five Different Pentatonic Scale Positions on E9!!! |
Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
|
Posted 22 Aug 2010 5:24 pm |
|
(I discovered these a few months ago, but the implications are so huge that I am only now starting to digest the information and actually use them in my playing:)
There are five places where I can get a G major pentatonic scale with my S-12 Extended E9th 5+5 copedant. Most of you should be able to get most or all of these. 
(A G major pentatonic scale consists of the five most popular, or most useful, or most important notes in the G major scale, G, A, B, D, and E. These are also the five notes in the E minor pentatonic scale -- E, G, A, B, and D.)
I have written these out for ten string E9:
At the third fret, engage the knee lever that lowers the second string two frets and the ninth string one fret. From the (thick) 10th string to the (thin) first string, your tuning is now D, E, G, A, B, D, G, B, E, and A, without moving the bar or your feet or your knees.
At the fifth fret, engage the pedal or knee lever that lowers the second string one fret, along with the B pedal that raises the third and sixth strings. Your tuning is now E, G, A, B, D, E, A, D, G, and B.
At the eighth fret, engage the knee lever that lowers the second string two frets and the ninth string one fret, along with the E lever (that lowers your fourth and eighth strings). Your tuning is now G, A, B, D, E, G, B, E, A, and D.
At the tenth fret, engage the knee lever that lowers the second string two frets and the ninth string one fret, along with the B pedal that raises the third and sixth strings. Your tuning is now A, B, D, E, G, A, D, G, B, and E.
At the twelfth fret, engage the knee lever that raises the first and seventh strings one fret each (if you have it) and lower the second string one fret (if you can do that at the same time) and then add the B pedal that raises the third and sixth strings. Your tuning is now B, D, E, G, A, B, E, A, D, and G.
I always knew there were a couple of places on pedal steel to play pentatonic scales. But five different locations! For every pentatonic scale, major or minor!  I tend to think in terms of chords more than scales, so I am just starting to use these, but they sure sound good.
Any comments, corrections, additions, or variations?
(These sure make it obvious to me how important the knee lever is that lowers the second string two frets while lowering the ninth string one fret. But I also realize that other copedants can do similar things in different ways.)
(I play Extended E9 12 string, and most of these scales continue onto the two thickest strings as well, but they are different for U-12 players, and copedants tend to vary most on the thickest strings, so your setup may be different on the thickest strings.)
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
|
|
|
Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 3:44 am
|
|
Does anybody find this useful? Or did I not make it clear? Or is it not clear why it is important? I am curious why nobody comments. To me it is big news, a new way for this particular old guy to keep his creative urges from being dismantled...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
|
|
|
Jack Dougherty
From:
Spring Hill, Florida, USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 4:46 am
|
|
Barry....
I understand the concept, but could you give an example to those who may want an application in a song or two?
j |
|
|
|
Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 5:04 am Thank you...
|
|
| Barry, my current steel allows me to lower the 1st and 9th, didn't for a long time, but I haven't been using them too much... The B pedal and the 7th string raise combo are huge and I personally couldn't live without the 7th string raise now. 9 and 1 lowered, B pedal down = Blues. Also fluid runs up the neck buy adding the 7th raise at the appropriate place... Very nice, thank you. |
|
|
|
Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 6:35 am
|
|
I like to use the AB pedal position for pentatonics. For E minor 10th fret root on the 7th string.
Jack,
The opening guitar riff from the Temtations tune "My Girl" is a musical example of the major pentatonic scale.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZh7nRw6gl8
_________________
Bob |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 8:04 am
|
|
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| Does anybody find this useful? ...Or is it not clear why it is important? I am curious why nobody comments. |
Yes, of course it's very useful to know how to find groups of notes on your guitar. It's less useful to be able to play a giant pentatonic scale (or any chord or whatever) across all the strings without moving the pedals or bar. If 8 hours elapsed without anyone acknowledging your discovery I think that is just because we all noticed the same thing when we were starting out. In fact it is not really surprising to find pentatonic scales on standard E9 steel, because the density of notes is 5 notes per octave. So in a literal sense, any pedal combination gives a pentatonic scale of some kind. But "the pentatonic scale" usually means invervals of the black keys on the piano as in your examples.
I'm sure you noticed that to change from one of your p. scales to another, you just raise or lower one note a half step. More useful probably is to learn learn to exploit the differences between the various ways to play the same notes; i.e. which notes you can/cannot bend. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 8:52 am
|
|
| Barry Hyman wrote: |
| Does anybody find this useful? Or did I not make it clear? Or is it not clear why it is important? I am curious why nobody comments. To me it is big news, a new way for this particular old guy to keep his creative urges from being dismantled... |
I think that nobody commented because you posted in the Steel Players section instead of the Pedal Steel section where people write about the instrument. I've moved the topic.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Danny Bates
From:
Fresno, CA. USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 1:47 pm
|
|
Thanks for this stuff Barry. The pentatonic scales are "safe stepping stones" in our world of improvisation.
I try to and simplify them (even more) so here's what I do.
If a major chord is 1,3,5 and a pentatonic scale is 1,2,3,5,6 the only differences from the major chord are the 2 and the 6...
So I remember this.
1 +2 frets = 2 (the 3 -2 frets is also the 2)
5 +2 frets = 6
Also remember the 6th tone is 3 frets from the 1 and you have it made... (If you know where the 1,3,5 of the chord is)  |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 2:18 pm Thanks, Barry
|
|
| I play a U12, and I think you done a right fine service here! Lord knows we cain't jes play CRAZY ARMS forever, nice as it is! |
|
|
|
Barry Hyman
From:
upstate New York, USA
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 7:26 pm
|
|
Jack -- don't know a song to use these on yet. I always play seven-note scales or blues scales along with the chords to songs -- I really haven't figured out how to include these five-note scales in my pedal steel repertoire yet. As Earnest says, a big chord or scale without moving pedals or the bar can get boring. So right now these have academic interest for me but I don't use them much when I play.
Earnest -- I didn't discover these when I first started to play because my copedant was different back in the day, but also because I was always looking for chord shapes and didn't pay as much attention to scales, especially pentatonic scales. It has only been in the last 15 months (since I got my new steel) that I have found all these 11- and 12-string major and minor pentatonic scales.
I also have discovered about five or six different ways to play a seven-note scale with this copedant, but still only use two or three of them when improvising. It takes a long time between when I first figure something out and when I know it well enough to include it in my improvisation in real time...
_________________
I give music lessons on several different instruments in Cambridge, NY (between Bennington, VT and Albany, NY). But my true love is pedal steel. I've been obsessed with steel since 1972; don't know anything I'd rather talk about... www.barryhyman.com |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 23 Aug 2010 11:13 pm
|
|
Thanks Barry, I need all the help I can get here. This is a keen observation on the pentatonic "pockets" found in E9. I've been contemplating converting my Fessy U12 from E9/B6 to an Extended E9 for those low notes you mentioned. Have you made similar observations on C6?
Clete |
|
|
|
Jeremiah Wade
From:
Bladenboro, NC
|
Posted 25 Aug 2010 5:12 am
|
|
Here's another use for minor pentatonic scales. In the key of C (for simplicity's sake). You can use the Am pentatonic scale in place of C major (Ionian). The notes are identical and give you other positions to solo out of. For those of you who also play 6-strings this is a great scale to emulate pedal steel bends and bluesy licks.
_________________
I'd rather be pickin' |
|
|
|
Geoff Barnes
From:
Sydney, Australia
|
Posted 25 Aug 2010 1:25 pm
|
|
Thank you.... On my guitars the RKR has been mostly decorative. As a 6 string guitarist who started out exploring improvisation by playing around with pentatonics this is very helpful.
A lightbulb moment... thanks again.
_________________
Too much equipment....I think I need help. |
|
|
|
Dan Fullmer
From:
Boise, Idaho, USA
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 7:50 am
|
|
Rolling Stones - Dead Flowers is a great example of what "could" be done with pentatonic on steel.
Last edited by Dan Fullmer on 4 Sep 2014 2:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Greg Spence
From:
Union, MO
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 12:35 pm
|
|
Thanks Barry, I'm fairly new to the steel and posts like these are a great help.
_________________
MSA "The Universal" - Peavey Nashville 112 - Fender Mustang III amp - and way too many guitars |
|
|
|
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 1:53 pm
|
|
Hey Clete,
I thought on the extended 9th they just add a G# and an E below the D. On my ZB E6/9 I have a B below the low E and no D in the open position. What are your bottom four strings now? Mine from the bottom up are B,E,G#,B,E.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 2:25 pm
|
|
Niels, you are correct. The Extended E9 tuning is E G# B D from bottom up. The top ten are identical to standard E9 tuning. Your tuning is also called Universal E9/B6 (since it combines the E9 and B6 tunings into one).
The missing D on string 9 is so that the B6 tuning is complete on the bottom 10 strings. The top 8 strings are identical to E9, and the D is achieved by either lowering string 8 E down a step, or raising string 9 B up a step and a half. Many converts say its the best of both and I really did enjoy this tuning on my Fessy for a while. I didn't miss the D and adapted to using levers to get it when necessary.
My second Mullen guitar is a 12 string Extended E9 4X5, and I was contemplating putting it back to Universal E9/B6 8X5 (it was originally setup that way, and I have the extra pedals), but Mickey Adams continues to dissuade me from doing so, haha.
Last edited by Clete Ritta on 4 Sep 2014 2:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 2:36 pm
|
|
Well mine drives Mickey nuts! The top four strings start with string four C#,E,F#, with the top string G#. Then I have Day pedals but they are 2,3,4. Pedal 1 does something entirely different.It is currently a 6 and 4 but soon to be a 6X7. But like I tell Mickey the only one I need to please is me! 
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
|
|
|
Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 2:42 pm
|
|
Ok, so your tuning is definitely not Universal, but Unique haha!  |
|
|
|
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
|
Posted 4 Sep 2014 2:56 pm
|
|
Well it actually is the best Universal tuning out there. You might enjoy going to You Tube and checking out some of Zane King's video's about the tuning. I think it makes more sense to a spanish guitar player! You never go up the strings to go down in pitch.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
|
|
|
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 12:03 am
|
|
There is a perfectly logical reason why there is 5 positions and not 4 or 6 or 7 positions where one would find the pentatonic scale on the steel-guitar.
Whatever string you choose to start with will only give you 5 different positions to play any of the notes in that pentatonic scale.
Same reason you will only find 3 positions for a major triad for a given set of strings
Playing the pentatonic scale in each of those 5 positions without using pedals/levers will help to reveal why so and so pedal/lever need be used for certain positions.
Even tho 2 octaves of the whole scale can be found in one position I rarely find myself staying in one postion. A lot of the times I will only be using 3 or 4 strings and going up/down between the different positions since the sound of certain strings and meldoy lines sound better played on same string rather than across strings.
There are multiple ways to remember/use the pentatonic scale
Ill list some possibilites
Am pentatonic
A C D E G A (correct notes but not intuitive to remember for all keys)
A - - C - D - E - - G - A (Easier to visualize and pattern applies to any key)
1 - - b3 - 4 - 5 - - b7 - 1
Even this pattern works
- - - - - - -
Am triad w an added 4th and a b7 note
Cmajor triad w added 2nd and 6th note
Am pentatonic also share same notes as Cmajor Pentatonic !!!
Practise parts of that scale so you learn to recognize the sound of a 4th sliding up to a 5th or the sound a 4th sliding down to the b3rd just as much as you should be able hear a b7 sliding up to the Root note.
But most of all, have fun playing.
B.Erlandsen |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 10:01 am
|
|
| Bengt Erlandsen wrote: |
There is a perfectly logical reason why there is 5 positions and not 4 or 6 or 7 positions where one would find the pentatonic scale on the steel-guitar.
|
Good point, but theoretically, if you had enough pedals, you you play the same pentatonic scale on every fret.
Or, equivalently, you could play all 12 pentatonic scales on the open strings. |
|
|
|
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 1:47 pm
|
|
I might clarify what Earnest said: It is dependent on how many strings and what pedals and knee levers you have. The three positions for a triad might hold true for a 10 string conventional(?) tuning.Just as five positions of the Pentatonic scale, but really how many do you need?
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
|
|
|
Zane King
From:
Nashville, TN
|
Posted 5 Sep 2014 1:48 pm
|
|
What a complicated thread. I need to get a calculator out.
Thanks Niels.
_________________
Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com |
|
|
|
