The Steel Guitar Forum

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I have just spend two hours testing something that Bobby Loveday told me about. Go to Radio Shack and buy a 7 inch Microphone Y-Cable. That is what it says on the package. The bar code is 40293 13902 and a number right above the bar code that looks like a Radio Shack number is 420-2156. This is a Y cord with a 1/4 inch mono female plug and two 1/4 inch male mono plugs. Plug one of the plugs into the high input on your amp and the other one into the low input, then your guitar into the female end. I think you will like the sound you get. It is fuller and less klangy.

I am running it with a Nashville 112 that has the Ken Fox op amp chips installed, if that makes a difference. The Peavey 112 manual says that the high input is 10db louder than the low input. You can see that this is true by plugging into first one input then the other. On my amp, there is a definate tone change when you do this. I have a 1974 Emmons PP guitar, if that makes any difference, but there is definately a tone difference between the two inputs as well a volume difference. The manual also says if you connect both of the inputs simultaneously, then they will both become low outputs. Technically, this may be true, but the volume is as loud with the Y cord hookup as it is using only the high input. You do not loose any volume, for whatever reason.

When Bobby told me about this, I figured the same thing would work just by running an extra cord from the 2nd output on my Hilton pedal. Didn't work worth a darn, and I use George L cords. So why the short Y cord works when two seperate cords don't, is a mystery to me. I have experimented with the Hilton pedal and my Goodrich 120 pot pedal. Right now, I like the pot pedal a bit better with this Y cord set up, but it is a very close call. Either pedal sounds great.

You should give this a try, really. I know everybody's ears are different and it may not be to your liking, but for $5.00, it is worth a shot. I think 90% of you are going to like it and notice a smoother sound.

BTW, after installing the new chips, I liked the sound of the amp reverb better than my RV-3, believe it or not. I set the amp reverb on about 4 and am using the RV 3 just as a delay. I think I am getting more of a pure steel sound that sounds less processed for my ears. I like the sound better for the classic country band I play in.

Don Poland · From: Gettysburg, PA.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103842
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Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

That's an interesting idea. Essentially what you're finding there is the effect on the pickup's tonal response when the impedance load is lowered. Normally, a pickup will see between 250 and 450k Ohms of impedance loading (at full pedal) when using a pot pedal into a normal, hi-z input to an amp like a Peavey or Fender. With a Hilton pedal a pickup will see a whopping 1000k (1Meg) of impedance, and that's why Hiltons make your pickups sound so noticeably snappy and bright. With this Y-cable mod (along with a pot passive pot pedal), you're exposing the pickup and volume pedal to the very low-z #2 input which on a Peavey Nashville 400 for example, is 44k Ohms. So as you go up on the volume pedal (pot pedal), that 44k begins to load down the pickup and mellow out the pickup's highs pretty significantly.

This low Z (Z = impedance) loading on the pickup creates a very significant change in pickup tone response. I've been putting a variable load control knob in my Black Box, Revelation preamp, Tonic Preamp, and FreeLoader for years now so that you can accurately dial in this darkening/brightening effect of the pickup's treble peak exactly where you want it to best match any given pickup to its guitar and rig. It appears that more recently the Telonics volume pedal, Mullen Preamp, and LeMay Preamp have also gotten on board and incorporated the same loading feature into their designs via a screwdriver trimpot. It's very effective and I find it useful to be able to tame the pickup's treble response this way so that it becomes much easier to find a balance between having clear sounding low strings and warm sounding high strings. When the impedance load gets much above 350k, it then becomes harder to find this balance, and takes a lot more use of amp EQ to try and fight it.

Cool tip George!

Brad

www.sarnomusicsolutions.com

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Thanks for the explanation Brad. I had read George's
post and wondered about the nuts and bolts of his idea.
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Steve English · From: Southern Arizona

Way back in the mid-late 60's we would run a jumper from the main channel of our fender amps to the second channel in an effort to get mo' power!

Tone hadn't come into vogue yet.... Wink

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Brad, thank you so much for taking the time to give us all a lesson in pickups and the way they react to different things. I am not an electronic's guy, but have messed with PA's for years and do know the difference between high Z and low Z and ohms. I made a steel guitar one time and used, of all things, an old 8 mm movie projector to wind a pickup. I was probably 18 at the time and couldn't afford a steel, so I made one. Non pedal, of course and it did work.

Anyway, I am glad to see that the idea has merit and to have an inkling as to why it works. I wish I could claim the idea, but I am just passing it along. My Emmons PP has always been bright. Almost too bright for my Evans FET and Steel King. I think I will try these amps again, since you have pointed out that the Y cord setup will loose highs.

Ronald Smith · From: LA (Lower Alabama), USA

George,

I happened to be near a Radio Shack and got one of the y's and tried it for a few seconds and it does change things. I will give it more later and then really experiment with it. I'll try it with a 112 and 400 to compair.

Thanks for telling us about this, it should be fun to play with.

God bless,

Ron

Allan Jirik · From: West Bloomfield Michigan, USA

I purchased a Y cable for my 112 and also took the 2 effects pedals out of the chain and ran them through the post EQ patch instead. To my ears (volume pedal going through the Y cable and the effects in post EQ) it sounds pretty good.

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

George, I also have an Evans FET-500 and a Steel King. I run my guitars through a Sarno FreeLoader. With the FreeLoader, you can back off some of the highs without losing the crispness on the lower, wound strings. It's hard to explain, but it really works well.
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Mullen pre-RP U-12, Williams Keyless S-10, Excel 8-string Frypan, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, Sarno FreeLoader, Jagwire Strings

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

So....does this have just the opposite effect of a buffer? Such as a Match Box, Micro amp, etc which unload the pickup?

Just trying to understand why you would want the tone to be muddier rather than cleaner, or am I missing the whole idea here? Can't you accomplish the same effect via the guitar's tone control?

I know Bobby Loveday and he is a knowledgeable and good musician so I'm not doubting him, just trying to understand the big picture.

Paul Norman · From: Washington, North Carolina, USA

Will it damage the amp??

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

You have to try it to hear the difference. To my ears, it makes the sound richer, smoother, and fuller and less thin and klangy sounding, for lack of a better word. Just a better quality sound. It does not make it muddy at all. It also sounds better with a pot pedal than a Hilton, in my opinion. This is with my Emmons PP, Good rich 120 pedal, RV-3, set on Delay only, a 112 amp with the Ken Fox chips and using the amp reverb set on 4, and George L cables. Your gear may sound totally different and you may or may not like it. It works for me. I cannot get the same sound with amp EQ. Jerry, you mentioned guitar EQ, I am assuming you meant amp EQ.

Paul, I don't see how it could camage your amp. In the Peavey owner's manual, it states that if both inputs are used simultaneously, then they will both be Low output, so Peavy says it is OK to plug into both inputs at the same ttime. As I stated before, if you plug into the high input only, then move to the low input only, there is a noticable difference in less volume in the low input. Howeverk, although Peavy
says if you use plug into both simultaneously, the output volume is still high, like the high input, not low, like the low input by iitself.

Lee, thanks for the tip about the Sarno gizmo. I will check it out.

I hope a lot of you guys will try this and let us all know what you think. I am sure there will be some for and some against, but for a small investment, I think you owe it to yourself to try it. If it improves your sound, it is worth a whole lot more that $5.00. If not, assuming your can't return it , you have a cable that goes into the drqwer with all the other cables that you don't use, but then some day, you might have another use for it.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

No George, I was talking about the tone control on the guitar [provided it has one], not amp eq.

I'm sure I have one of these cables, next time I dig out the NV400, I'll give it a try.

Paul Haun · From: Georgia, USA

anyone try this with a Fender yet? gonna pick one up today...sounds interesting..

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Paul, I don't know about other Fender amps, but my Steel King only has one high input, so I can't use the Y cord on it. Jerry, sorry for misunderstanding you about the tone control on the guitar. My PP guitar does have a tone control on it, but I have never been able to get anything out of it worth a hoot. My Kline did not have a tone control and I think mot guitars do not, or maybe I have just never noticed them. The only way to know if it is for you are not is to try it. It should be worth $5.00 just to give it a shot and maybe you will like it and maybe not. I just talked to Ray Robinson on the phone and he likes it. Said it just makes the sound smoother, which is what I found also. He likes his Hilton pedal vs.the Goodrich 120. You just have to experiment with it to see if your ears like it. Other than trying it, everything is just speculation. I still don't understand why the short Y cord works but running a 2nd cord from the 2nd out on the volume pedal doesn't. Just seems to me that it would be the same thing, but it's not. You are putting a signal into each of the two inputs, so isn't the volume pedal working as a Y cord when you use two cords? My logic says yes, but maybe the length of the cord is a factor. I don't really understand why it works, it just does, so I guess that is all I need to know anyway.

Paul Haun · From: Georgia, USA

George...yeah, mine is a BF pro reverb...so I have 2 channels, each with 2 inputs, with number 2 being the low and number 1 being the high...If this works, will prob run the steel out of channel one and the 6string out of 2...

Ray McCarthy · From: New Hampshire, USA

Definite difference. The sound seems cleaner, smoother--hard to explain the difference, but it's there. Great investment Exclamation

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I was with Bobby Loveday last night at a steel jam. He said the Y cord was his idea and that he has used one for years with his 6 string lead guitar. He was playing a Kline U-12 wtth two 112 amps that do not have the Ken Fox chips installed. He had Y cords on both amps and his sound was great. I used the Y last night for the first time on a gig and I was extremely happy with my sound. Can't imagine ever playing without it. However, on a negative side, Mike Dearing was using a Nashville 400, so right at the end of the jam, I had him try it. The sound was not as good as it was without the Y cord. However, we did not have any time to adjust the EQ on the amp, which I think you have to do, to some extent. So, I don't know if we could have dialed in a better sound or not. Like I said before, you just have to try it. It may not work on all rigs and to all ears. Just play with the amp EQ to be sure. There are so many variables between guitars, pickups, cords, volume pedals, amps, etc. that I am sure it will not be any benefit, and maybe even make the sound worse, for some people.

Ray, glad that it worked for you. You are hearing the same smoother and richer sound that I hear.

Ronald Smith · From: LA (Lower Alabama), USA

George,

The more I fool around with this set up the better I like it. I find that it gives you more change than thought of. I find that just a change in the reverb is worth it. I still have plenty of try things yet. Like two amps or maybe three.....etc. NV 400's, FSK, FJK, NV112 + rack system.

Thanks for all and God bless,

Ron

Paul Haun · From: Georgia, USA

So, tried it out today on my BF pro reverb in the trem input...I have to say that there are certain things I liked and others I'm still up in the air over. I was using my taylor t5...psg here on tuesday and will try with that too...The tone was defintely different.. I usually only use the low input on the trem channel because the thing is just too loud. So, I am more used to a softer tone vs. the high input. The upside was the brights definitely held sustain and sparkle without being overly sharp and harsh. The low end was still present but wasn't nearly as muffled. I will have to say that the extra power was a little much for the house, but I could see this doing better out on a gig. That being said, even on the low input the levels are quite high too, hence my hunt for an attenuator.

It did sound more flat to me with the "y" connector. I didn't tweak much and that's what I'll try to get to this week. I do have to say that my girlfriend noticed quite a difference and she really liked it with the 'Y'...she is a classically trained pianist, so it's a legit observation....

David Griffin · From: Jimmy Creek,Arkansas, USA

I used to use a Y cord when I played thru a Fender Twin. One output cord into each channel. You get the reverb & dry sound,mix & match to taste.You can use more reverb without getting that "washed out" sound.Pretty cool when you turn on the tremolo,too. Thanks for the tip,I never would have thought it would make a difference.
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Tom Wolverton · From: San Diego, CA

Isn't the non-reverb channel and the reverb channel on a Fender Pro or Twin Rev out of phase with each other, so the effect is thin tone?
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David Griffin · From: Jimmy Creek,Arkansas, USA

Tom: I don't know if they are out of phase or not. Does anyone know for sure?I don't remember it affecting the tone,but it was a long time ago.Maybe someone can try it & tell us.
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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Tommy Shown · From: Louisiana, USA

I have a Goodrich pedal with 2 amp outs, and a Walker stereo steel. Do you think,it I put in on both outputs on the pedal and run it into my input, it would sound ok?
Tommy Shown
SMFTBL

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